Augustine and the Eternal Soul

Soul immortality and spiritual awakening

0:01This is Saint Augustine, or Augustine. We'll call him Augustine. Augustine, like Origen, considered the soul to be immaterial, non-corporeal.

0:24He believed that the soul did not exist prior to the birth of the individual human being. It is only at death that the soul attains its immortal nature and lives on through eternity. What is that?

0:41He sometimes says he is not returned. What is clear early? The soul did not exist previous to the birth of the individual human being. That exists. When the individual was created, the soul was created with him.

1:03Only after this initial creation is there immortality. What do you mean? It is not very clear. It is not clear. The soul is created, he is saying. That means it's created, and how it is immortal?

1:26It's immortal after it's created. It's created, but it doesn't die. Then what is this death? The death is simply the death of the body. Then, and he accepts another body? Then he has to accept that's transmigration.

1:47No, he doesn't. Now, here's the point. Augustine believed that God elected some men to everlasting happiness.

2:09Death is of two types: physical death, the soul leaves the body; and soul death, the death experienced by the soul when God abandons it. The damned face not only physical death, but spiritual soul death as well.

2:35So it can be taken figuratively that when one forgets his position, there is a kind of death also. One forgets himself. But actually soul is eternal, and what Augustine says as spiritual death, that is his forgetfulness.

3:07It's like in unconsciousness one forgets his identity. But if he is dead, then he cannot revive consciousness.

3:22Similarly, it is a little difficult for the bodily concept of life persons, but there are many proofs and understanding that soul is eternal;

3:40He, of course, uh, until he gets his freedom from this material existence, he is spiritually dead, uh, even though he is working in this material form, because he has forgotten his real identity; uh, that is also a kind of death.

4:04«Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī» — this śloka explains how one is dead and how one is alive. When one is forgetful of his spiritual consciousness, God consciousness, he is supposed to be dead.

4:27And when he, one is alive to the spiritual consciousness or God consciousness, he is alive. In this sense, it is a question of two stages: uh, an awakening stage and forgetful state.

4:49But actually a soul is eternal, he never dies, even after the annihilation of this body. But the forgetful stage is never everlasting or eternal, is it? Yes. It is that, it can be.

5:08Uh, how do you... That is our Krishna consciousness movement. Just like a man is sleeping, almost unconscious.

5:21But if you call him again and again and the sound enters, uh, through the ear into the heart, he becomes awakened.

5:34Similarly, by this chanting process he revives his spiritual consciousness; then he is alive in his spiritual life.

5:47So when... Then, but Augustine would say that God would eternally abandon the damned soul, a soul down to eternal perdition. Eternally abandoned means for very, very long years, millions of years it remains forgetful.

6:18So seemingly, but actually we can revive at any moment in good association, sādhu-saṅga, by this method of hearing and chanting.

Divine creation and omnipresence of God

6:37Śravaṇam — that for this devotional service, beginning with hearing is very important.

6:45He constantly hears from the self-realized soul, then he becomes awakened to his spiritual life, and keeping himself always in the devotional service, he remains spiritually alive. Alright, that's the end of that term.

7:12Augustine speaks of two cities. And he wrote a famous book called "The City of God". And one city is divine. The one city, love of God unites all men, and the other city, men are united by love of the world.

7:31One society loves the flesh and the other society loves the spirit. This figurative description is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

7:43The body is considered as a city and the soul is described as the king of the city, and he goes out from different gates; the body has got nine gates. In this way, a figurative description is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

8:08But that city is figuratively taken, this body, and the king of the city is the soul. This is the continuation of Augustine. Augustine writes: "God is not the soul of all things, but the maker of all souls."

8:34So this doctrine seems to admit of the transcendence of God, but not of the immanence of God, at least not as the Paramātmā accompanying the individual soul. He does not accept... for what? It doesn't seem to be.

8:57It seems that... and how God is all-pervading. The format is there in the Brahma-saṁhitā. For... for creation. This creation is done by one plenary portion of His person.

9:47The puruṣa-avatāra, the Mahā-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is expanding. So, and not only one universe, but millions of universes, jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. And

10:12in the Bhagavad-gītā also, the same thing is confirmed. Aṣṭadhā... by My one plenary portion, I expand throughout all the universes, all the living entities; even within the atom, I am present.

10:47So unless God has got that omnipresence potency everywhere... And then how can He be omnipresent? This word meaning He is everywhere present by expansion of His one plenary power. Augustine

Material bodies and origins of suffering

11:16disagrees with Origen, who looked on the body as a prison.

11:23He says: "If the opinion of Origen and his followers were true, that matter was created that souls might be enclosed in bodies as in penitentiaries for the punishment of sin, then the higher and lighter bodies should have been for those whose sins were slight, and the lower and heavier ones for those whose crimes were great."

11:50So, that is the Vedic conception. The soul as he is, is part and parcel of God. But he is imprisoned in different types of body.

12:10Therefore Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gītā that "I am the seed-giving father of all different forms of life." And the mother, material nature, is the mother. That is actually very logical.

12:34Through the matter, different bodies of living entities are coming out. From water, from earth, from air, even from fire, ether, everywhere. Sarvaga, life, living entities are visible.

12:56Therefore the combination of five elements — water, fire, air — that is the body of the living entities, and the soul is a part and parcel of the Supreme.

13:15And the souls are impregnated within this material world by God, and they come out through the, uh, womb of the mother nature or individual mother, whatever you say. The soul is coming out of matter, but it is not matter.

13:42The living entity's part and parcel of God, assuming different types of body, either you say according to pious or impious activities, or according to his pious and impious desires, vāsanā.

14:06So the desires actually is the cause of, uh, higher and lower grades of body, but the soul is the same. Uh, therefore those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness, they see the same soul in, in each and every body.

14:28Either in the body of a dog or in the body of a brāhmaṇa, the same soul is existing, but according to different desires and karma, one gets different types of body.

14:46Augustine believed that all men came from Adam, that is the first man or one man, and that this one man, God created this one man, and this one man is the root of all mankind.

15:01He writes: "God knew how good it would be for this community often to recall that the human race had its roots in one man, precisely to show how pleasing it is to God that men, though many, should be one."

15:20The, it is a Vedic conception is also like that, that the mankind has come from Manu. From Manu, human being or manuṣya. This has, the word is manuṣya, coming from Manu.

15:44So, uh, Manu is also coming from Brahmā in this way as the conception of the first creature, Adam. Similarly, the first living being is Lord Brahmā.

16:06Therefore, our proposition is that a living being coming from the living being—Brahmā is a living being, or Adam is a living being—the living being does not come from matter.

16:23Brahmā is also coming from the Supreme Lord as rajo-guṇa avatāra, incarnation of rajo-guṇa. So all living beings, they are coming from the supreme living being. So Brahmā is also the first creature within this universe.

16:50Augustine, just as Augustine saw that the soul is created into a particular body, um, he felt that this was a gift from God and that this was not an insurance. Soul is coming from a particular body?

17:14That the soul was created at a particular time. We went through this yesterday, I believe. The belief in the creation of the soul. The soul was created and that the body is a gift.

17:27And he also rejects, on the basis of this, he rejects reincarnation.

17:34He writes, "Let these Platonists," because Plato believed in reincarnation, "let these Platonists stop threatening us with reincarnation as a punishment for our souls." Reincarnation is ridiculous.

17:49There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls. If our creation, even as mortals, is due to God. What is that return?

18:03He says there is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls, and the reason he gives, he says, "If soul is life, what does it mean returning to the light?"

18:18He believes there is no reincarnation as punishment. Reincarnation is envisioned as a kind of a punishment; to have to take birth again is a type of punishment.

18:31And Augustine rejects this, saying that how can the return to bodies which are gifts of God be punishment? He doesn't see how that this is.

18:45Does he think that, uh, the body of a hog and the body of similar, uh, lower creatures eating stool and living in prison place... Is it not punishment? Does he think like that?

19:04Why one gets the body of King Indra or Lord Brahmā and why one gets the body of a pig and hog and living in filthy place and eating stool — is it not punishment and reward?

19:23Well, he would say that, um, how do you explain the body of the pig eating stool? I've been feeling this off. He, he wouldn't agree that that man could be reincarnated. Why now? Why he'd not agree?

19:44The body is a gift by God, then body can be a punishment also by God. This is reasonable. When he's punished, he gets the body of a pig. When he wanted, he gets the body of King Indra. So that is punishment and reward.

20:10What about the body of a man? Is that punishment or gift? There are many men who are very well situated, and there are many men who are suffering. So two things are there: suffering and enjoyment according to the body.

20:32So this has been explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: mātrā-sparśās tu. According to the body, the, uh, heat and, and what is called, uh, cold, heat and cold, uh, śītoṣṇa, that is perceived. An old man perceives very much cold.

21:10A young child, he does not perceive, according to the body. An animal, naked body, he can walk on the street in severe cold, but a man cannot. So this body is the, um, source of suffering and enjoyment.

21:38So why not take it as punishment and reward?

Original sin and the purification process

21:49Well, Augustine believes that each individual man or each individual soul within man is not necessarily condemned to earth due to his own personal desire or sin, but due to the original sin of Adam, the first man.

22:10He writes: "When the first couple, that's Adam and Eve, were punished by the judgment of God, the whole human race, which was to become Adam's posterity through the first woman, was present in the first man."

22:29So that was the origin of sin and death. So man's sin is not personal. The reason I'm in condition in this human body is not because I personally committed a mistake.

22:44It's punishment for his own desire. Why should it be his design? For my... it's punishment for my own desire. Why does he say that it's not punishment?

22:57But here he says it's because, not for anything I did, but because of, uh, the original man, the sin of the original man, that everyone coming from the original man is... The original man was punished.

23:14So the next man, why he comes to such a father, unless he's punished? Sometimes a father's disease is inherited by the son. Is it not punishment? So the very coming into a body, the race, is a punishment in itself. Yeah.

23:45He says this on the one hand; on the other hand, he says it is a gift, not a punishment. Yes, gift you can take. God has given me this body for punishment.

24:06It is His mercy that, undergoing punishment, I am becoming purified, making progress towards God. The devotees, they think like that.

24:18Although it is punishment, they take it as mercy, because by undergoing the punishment, one is making progress towards God-realization. In that sense, it is a gift. Gift actually means something given by somebody.

24:41So when it is given by God for our correction, it can be taken as a gift. Augustine believes that the physical body comes first and then the spiritual. What is sown a natural body arises a spiritual body.

25:15If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. But it is not the spiritual that comes first, but the physical and then the spiritual.

25:26The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven, heavenly. But the body which, by the life-giving spirit, will become spiritual and immortal, will under no conditions be able to die.

25:45So that man must first come as a man, as a mortal physical being first, in order to attain immortality. Like man, every living entity has a mortal body. So to enter into the mortal body, that is a kind of punishment.

26:14And then there is an evolutionary process from a lower grade of body to a higher grade of body.

26:25That is quite reasonable, that every living entity or soul is part and parcel of God, but on account of some sinful activities, a disobedience to God — as they believe Adam, on account of disobedience to God, they lost paradise and came to this material world.

26:55Similarly, the soul belongs to the paradise or Eden or Krishna. But somehow or other, he falls down within this material world and he gets first a, um, body like Adam.

27:16But again, uh, on account of his, um, further low-grade activities, he goes down.

27:29So sometimes as human beings, or sometimes as more than human beings (today we got), and sometimes as animals, trees, plants—in this way he goes down, degradation, or goes up by elevation, but he is always aloof from the material body.

27:56But according to his desires and activity, he gets a different body. This is quite reasonable and confirmed by the Vedic literature.

28:08But his actual life is when he's freed from this material contamination, getting different bodies life after life.

Harmony with God and spiritual nature

28:27Augustine conceived of peace in this way. He says, "Peace between a mortal man and his maker consists in fellowship."

28:47The peace of the heavenly city lies in a perfectly ordered and harmonious communion of those who find their joy in God and in one another in God. So that peace in its final sense is the calm that comes out of this order.

29:07Yes. Peace means to come in contact perfectly with the Supreme Personality of Godhead; that is peace.

29:19When a man is in ignorance, he thinks that he is the enjoyer of this world, but when he comes in contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Controller, he understands that God is enjoying.

29:41We are not enjoying. We are servants to supply the needs of enjoyment of God. That is our life. Just like a servant supplies the needs of the master.

29:57The master has no need, but he enjoys the company of the servant, and the servant enjoys the company of the master because our relationship is as master and servant. A servant getting a good, nice government job is very happy.

30:24And similarly, the master is also happy getting a very faithful servant. This is the relationship. So when this relationship is disturbed, that is called existence in māyā.

30:42And when this relation is restored, that is called spiritual life. So in the spiritual consciousness of Krishna consciousness, one understands that the Supreme Lord is the actual enjoyer, we are servants.

31:00The Supreme Lord is the actual proprietor and we are residents.

31:07And bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, and Supreme Lord is the supreme well-wishing friend of everyone. When a living being understands these three features of God's transcendental quality, he becomes happy.

31:37Augustine writes: "No man must be so committed to contemplation as in his contemplation to give no thought to his neighbor's needs, nor so absorbed in action as to dispense with the contemplation of God."

31:53So he felt that activity and meditation neither should be exclusive. But they should complement one another. They should go to—that means devotional activities. There should be both activity and meditation. Uh-huh.

32:13Not just one exclusive. Meditation—when you are active, the meditation is already there. Unless you think of God, how you can be active in the service of God? So meditation about whom?

32:36Meditation about the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the Supersoul within the core of heart, that is real meditation. And activity is more important than meditation.

32:55If I simply sit down and think of God, that is very good. But if I factually work for God as God desires, that is more important than meditation.

33:16If you love me and simply think of me, that may be taken as meditation, but if you love me, if you carry out my order, that is more important. Augustine can call these... It's ten minutes to six. Or you should finish.

33:46We can finish Augustine. He conceived of the spiritual world as a place where the bodies are very beautiful, are very happy, they move with grace.

34:02God is the source of every satisfaction and is the consummation of all desires. The people in the spiritual sky never cease praising God, never tire of praising Him. There is no envy, and bliss is all-pervasive.

34:24Sin has no power of temptation. Yes. When we remain in contact with God, the sin cannot touch.

Natural laws and sanctified eating

34:33That is the explanation given in the Bhagavad-gītā: daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā.

34:43According to our desires, we are associating with the different qualities of material nature and you are getting different types of body. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya — nature is the agent of Krishna, God.

35:02So as we desire, Krishna gives us the facility by giving us a body which is a machine. And just like a father and the son, the son insists, "Father, give me a cycle."

35:22So the affectionate father gives him a cycle, and he says, "Father, give me a motor car," so the affectionate father gives him a motor car. So this is the relationship between the father and the son.

35:40That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The Father, Krishna, is there within the core of heart of every living entity.

35:59And as he desires, the father supplies him a type of vehicle manufactured by the material nature. So this body is given by God because we desire it, but the body is manufactured by the material nature.

36:24This is very reasonable. So we are in different types of body, means in different types of vehicle;

36:39sometimes acting on the vehicle of a pig, and sometimes we are acting on the vehicle of a very important person or demigod. But we desire such things, and God gives us such vehicles manufactured by the material nature.

37:07This is the last point, and it's actually very crucial. For Augustine, mind, reason, and the soul are one and the same, and he writes, "Mind, reason?" Mind, reason, and the soul are all wrapped up together. Wrapped up.

37:32But there are different identities: intelligence. Everyone has got mind, but the mind acts under intelligence. But the intelligence of different living entities are different. Similarly, mind is also different.

37:53A dog's intelligence is not equal to the intelligence of A dog's intelligence is not equal to the intelligence of the human being. A dog's mind is not equal to the human being's mind.

38:08So actually, the soul being put under different types of body, uh, using different types of intelligence and different some mental, psychic action: thinking, feeling, willing.

38:25So according to the body, the mind and intelligence are different.

38:33Well, this thinking in this way, uh, Augustine writes, he says: "We do not apply 'thou shalt not kill' to plants because they have no sensation, or to irrational animals that fly, swim, walk or creep, because they are linked to us by no association or common bond. By the Creator's wise ordinance, they are meant for our use dead or alive; it only remains for us to apply the commandment 'thou shalt not kill' to man alone, oneself and others."

39:19So that is imagination of Augustine. But, uh, Jesus Christ does not say such, uh, qualitative killing. He says frankly: "Thou shalt not kill." When he says that, he means you should not kill.

39:43But when there is absolute necessity... just like he says that one life is food for the another life, does he not say like that? He says this is—this is Augustine writing.

40:05He said: "Some people try to stretch the prohibition 'thou shalt not kill' to cover beasts and cattle, and make it unlawful to kill any such animal.

40:16But then why not include plants and anything rooted in and feeding on the soil? After all, things like this, though devoid of feeling, are said to have life and therefore can die and so be killed by violent treatment."

40:34No, that is not a basic philosophy. Basic philosophy admits that one living entity is food for another living entity; that is natural.

40:47That is stated in this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ahastāni sahastānām, apadāni catuṣ-padām, phalgūni tatra mahatāṁ jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Those who have got hands, uh, they eat the animals without hands, only four legs.

41:10And the four-legged animals eat the animals which cannot move, that means plants and vegetables.

41:20Similarly, the weak is the food for the strong in this way; that is natural law that one living entity is food for another living.

41:34But our philosophy, Krishna consciousness philosophy, is not based on this platform that, uh, plant life is not sensitive and animal life is more sensitive, or human life is more sensitive.

41:55We take all of them as life, either human being or animal or plants or trees, it doesn't matter. That is, uh, inevitable. Either you eat animal or vegetable, you eat some living entity; that is, an entity cannot survive.

42:13Now it is a question of selection. That, of course, is there. But apart from this vegetarian or non-vegetarian diet, we are concerned with Krishna prasāda.

42:28Krishna... whatever Krishna eats, uh, we take the remnants of His foodstuff. So Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Give me, uh, food prepared from patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, vegetation."

42:50So if by killing vegetable or plant there is any sin, that is Krishna's; we simply eat after His eating. This is our philosophy. We are not after vegetarian diet or non-vegetarian diet.

43:14Whatever Krishna eats, we take the remnants of. So that's the conclusion of our...