Psychological effects of the offences, lecture #1 answer the questions
Бхакти Вигьяна Госвами · Бомбей · 2015
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Opening questions on spiritual practice
Namo Vishnu Padaya Krishna Prashtai Vutades Rimati Bhaktividanta Swami Nikinani Namaste Saraswati Devi Goravani Prachari Nirvishunavadi Paschatavishari Panchappa Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Ram Hare Ram Ram Ramare Hare Krishna.
Nitananda Pranprabu surprise me by saying that I am going too fast and presenting this matter uh does uh is it also impression of somebody else? I can't eat it. Yeah I know you have a different processor.
I'm ready to give faster presentation, but I'm afraid that everyone else will be turned off.
Anyway, maybe to make the pace little slower we can uh now before continuing the for the rest of the you know m materials which I kind of can speak on we can answer some questions. Is it a good idea? Yes.
It will probably yes to Karampu Josh, I I have some questions that I can ask offline, but there are some I think it might be nice to hold room to here, so I'll limit to those.
I might have missed it, but you mentioned this Asakrit Avritu Upadesh from Upadeshat from Bilal, Upadeshat, from Bilan. Upadeshat.
And so I heard that and I got the point about uh Jitra K2 mentioned 13 times and and so I I I heard some of the things I wasn't quite able to understand the idea of why by repetition like there's some specific values.
We could speak more on that, I would. Okay. Okay. Thank you. That's an interesting question. So basically what is the nature of sadhana?
Nature of sadhana we are dealing with our conditioned nature, which is some total of some skaras and vasanas and which covers over our spiritual nature. So while doing the spiritual practice,
sadhana, we are trying to count some scars which are there already, and to create some scars which will be deeper than uh the difference between Sanskara and Vassan?
Sanscar and Vassan Sanskara is usually it's just imprint or impression uh which is which may not be so deep.
When the certain some skaas become very deep and create clusters according to yoga psychology, they form vasana, which is very deep nature.
Like if you see uh a chart of a person then certain traits of his nature are just you know there and uh and you can see them but they are uh not f so strongly indicated and certain things are very strongly indicated from different angles.
You analyze it from different angles and you see it again and again, again, the same sort of nature is being revealed. So that's that's Vasana.
And the the nature of spiritual practice is more or less to contract the conditioned nature which is there for that we create better saṁskāras or saṁskāras which are uh if it's material saṁskāras conducive for spiritual practice, right?
And if it's spiritual saṁskāras still, you know, still we we need to strengthen them.
The problem is that because we are improperly or not perfectly practicing performing our spiritual practice then the saṁskāras are shallow, not so deep.
And they cannot really, you know, counteract the very deep offensive saṁskāras or whatever is there in our nature. And that's why the repetition is the means to make saṁskāra deeper.
You know like for example if you do something repeatedly, even though you are not really, you know don't get so much pleasure, but because you're doing it again and again and again, you ultimately develop liking because the
saṁskāras becomes deeper and becomes your nature. So in the same way we are repeating the same things again and again and again so that you know the saṁskāras become deeper and deeper and deeper, the spiritual saṁskāra.
Much so if you chant one time and you are a blank slate, a tabula rasa, then that may be enough to give somebody, but because our nature is colliding, because we have that nature, then these this sadhana, this repetition is beneficial because it begins to deal with that, even if you do it imperfectly by doing it again eventually it makes the change.
Impact of offenses on spiritual taste
Yeah. Basically Sridhara Swami he says that the offenses uh he cla classifies the offenses according to the degree of its severe how you say severity? Severity severity.
According to the degree of its severity into two categories. One when it's not so severe manifest or causes not to have the fall or the fruit of the spiritual activities.
Another one completely deprives us of the ability to perform spiritual practice.
You just you know that the example of this is given in Caitanya-caritāmṛta where there is this brāhmaṇa who came to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in Varanasi and say this is amazing, you know. I went to this Mayavadi sannyasis and they're chanting Chaitanya and Brahman, but they cannot pronounce the name of Krishna.
So basically, Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī says it can come to the point when you you know when your distaste or disgust even with the devotional practice or non-devotional nature becomes so strong uh then uh you will not even be able to continue even with the you know faulty defective practice of uh of devotional service. Maharaja, extrapolating
from what you said if someone is just committing harm then by performing devotional activities, they'll be able to very quickly purify themselves.
If they have aparādha, this prohibits the fruits, and therefore practice eventually begins to wear away at that.
The example which is given is the fever. The result of aparādha, the comparison or metaphor of the aparādha, the fever which one develops, and you know you may die from fever completely, or you may just lose the taste because of the fever.
Or you may you know there are different degrees of fever, uh you may lose the taste, uh you may develop the fever which will prevent you even to get benefit from eating. Because you eat and it only creates more toxins.
So that's a very severe state of aparādha when you are just doing something and it only you know creat even more difficult situation for you to do it properly.
And one thing is just lack of taste, another thing is you aggravate your situation by doing this and uh another thing is of course uh you know you may die from high fever completely.
This is this is like the water watering the upaśākhās instead of the root. The same idea. Yeah, the same idea. Exactly same idea.
Cultivating introspection versus crookedness
Watering the weeds. You mentioned dainya as being this feeling of fall in this lowness, and it was contrasted with this kaṭilya you said called kutilya, which is this feeling of crookedness.
And these are almost given antonyms for one another by Jīva Gosvāmī. Say it again please. What? What was the last thing? They're almost given like antonyms for one another.
And then you replaced dainya with the idea of introspection and sort of self-assessment as kind of with your falling you can understand your actual position and relationship with everything. And so we would know that in English almost as introspection, self-reflection.
Yeah. And so you chose to give this as like a a really solid way of understanding where your aparādhas are.
Yeah, whereas uh Cotelium prevents you from understanding where you really are and uh you know helps you to build up a false image of yourself, even for yourself, if it goes to a certain extent. And so your best way.
Your best way of assessing how you're doing without Rah is to look at your ability to deeply introspect about your own situation. Absolutely.
That that what basically that what uh conscious chanting or conscious practice of devotional service means. You you know you just you try to do it consciously.
It means basically understanding what's happening, what's going on in your in your mind and you know what you're thinking about, what is your relationship with Krishna in this moment and um whatever it is.
Would it be correct, Maharaj, to say that obviously there is a difference between aparādha and amṛta?
But would it be correct to say that for the body we took initiation, we took vows to commit the aparādha or say very well the principles in some form is also an aparādha because it's definitely a aparādha. It's definitely aparādha.
I mean you know if if you if your consciousness at that moment is that I'm so fallen and I know it's wrong and I know that this is you know something but but my somehow or other result of some aparādha, absolutely, then result of some apparatus, absolutely, then it's maybe not so bad, but we know that this is the seventh offense against the holy name.
If we just doing it casually and think that we will get away with it and uh there is no problem, I I'll just commit sin, what's the big deal? Krishna himself says sadureva samantaryak. So this is not so good.
This is definitely, that becomes aparādha, that becomes the, you know, rationalization of your if you feel very humble about this, that's fine if you feel even you know so that's definitely it becomes a aparādha.
Encouraging open feedback in leadership
There's a question. A question on the social sphere.
Sometimes we see, at least I see, that some leaders create almost like a kavacha, like an armor around themselves saying that basically saying whatever people say about me is an offense and you've got in some place there's that sense of fear of that aparādhaphobia that blocks any any intelligent dialogue.
So my question would be how can we as a movement encourage free expression in the sense of time legitimate doubts or legitimate questions or legitimate suggestions about the management or the leadership without encouraging obviously aparādha behavior. Thank you. It's an interesting question.
From one point of view, as a leaders showing the example to people we have to really be you know paka in a sense uh uh trying to practice as as as much as possible and we cannot you know always display this mood of being
fallen and uh be too emphatic about it. But there are certain obligations which are which are you if you deal with very nuances you can just always say your phone.
Like you yourself told me that your idea at one point to tell all these people, leaders assembled here never to tell anyone that they're not prepared because it may be interpreted wrongly and may you know develop some condescending attitude towards the speaker.
So in a similar way if we are dealing with junior people, it's not very advisable to you know always be open.
At the same time we also have to first of all have to on understand that the openness is there, should be there, and as we heard from Raj Mohan Prabhu in the first session that the readiness to admit our mistakes is actually a great cause of respect.
If we understand that in most cases there is no need to defend ourselves, especially to defend our false image.
That it's much better to you know to keep to keep the service, leadership service, to admit the mistakes openly without making a big deal out of it.
At least, you know, to our superiors or to our peers. So that's one thing which will be helpful.
And especially if we have the experience of see the examples of such people who you know who coming out openly about some weaknesses the at same time, you know, we're kept in a high esteem. That's one thing.
Another thing is that more directly to your point, how we should be open at the same time not to be subject to criticism or not to encourage criticism. Then I think my answer would be
again remembering the certain behaviors of you know which brings about the the trust, trust building behaviors. Two first one are about this. We have to give the feedback in a certain way which will be not threatening.
And we have to teach people how to give the feedback in a respectful way and not to intim intimidate people or offend people basically. So I think it's a matter of training how to be straightforward and be able to give
uh To give feedback but at the same time not offending people. Because feedback, open feedback does not necessarily mean offense. Offense means I want to bring somebody down.
I am basically trying to smash him or to smear him, uh to kind of, mm, smear his reputation. This is offense. And if this attitude is there it cannot be, it should not be encouraged in any way or form.
But the open feedback, open and respectful feedback should be encouraged.
So I'm totally against this attitude that we should just, you know, build up the fear of offense, you know, whatever that any feedback in any shape or form is offensive.
But we have to also be very clear that so-called feedback can constitute an offense, can be an offense, and there has to be very clear distinction between one and another. Thank you Raj.
Categorizing anarthas and subtle offenses
Uh, yeah, Radha Krishna. Uh there are just two short questions for what is your technical you said that there are four types of anarthas and you went up to three and missed the fourth one. Uh okay.
Uh, Hṛdaya-daurbalyam, the fourth one. Okay. The weakness of the heart. Which also... Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura breaks all of them into four categories, so it's all together sixteen.
The other is that is it uh is it an offense if uh if I do something that's obviously an offense but the other person doesn't feel offended. That's one thing. The other thing is the other way around.
If I do something, it's not an offense, and the other people and the other person feels that it is like that.
Well, to this end there is a famous verse from the fourth canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam where it is said that even if the person doesn't accept the great person doesn't accept offense, but the dust from his lotus feet accepts the offense and you know falls under the head of the offender.
So even if the person is so great that he doesn't notice the offense, it's still an offense, and Krishna notices the offense, the Holy Name notices the offense. As far as if you didn't constitute, if you didn't, you know, if your attitude was not offensive and still the person was offended, well I I think it's still some sort of an offense. Because you heard the person and uh you know uh
y y you should be very careful of how to deal with this person, but you know it's probably better if if the person is so sensitive, so irrationally sensitive so to speak, then it's probably better not to you know to keep a safe distance and not still not to create a fence.
But uh at the same time if you didn't mean it and still you feel that the person uh uh was offended, then I think the best way is to mm very straightforwardly speak with the person it and it may clear the clear the problem and the clear the offense and you know straighten everything.
So and I if if you're very pure in heart if you if you don't really me really don't mean anything evil And you did you just sincerely wanted to to help him uh then it would not be difficult. And even if he doesn't understand, just you know keep the distance, what can we do?
Remaining conscious to avoid spiritual offenses
Yes. Thank you so much. Oh Ramatusan. You describe what similar described of Rama and research the sin is more unintentional, Avarada is intentional.
The next version talks about Vijaya, I mean the tendencies with the compensity and bhakti will uh sort of dissolve you know just engaging you know in devotional service um will eradicate that sin and you know the the seed also.
And I'm I'm thinking in terms of operata, um is there is there a formula Yeah.
Um we learned that if you commit a a an offence that you feel right now then you will you beg forgiveness and you don't let the same thing recur again. I mean from your side.
Are there like formulas or like clear cut uh ways, guidance that you can give to us how we could avoid uh um this committing of upper events in different categories.
Um Um the only the only possible way to avoid apparatus is to be conscious constantly and to be constantly alert by performing devotional service, which is again very difficult in our state.
But uh the more conscious we become, the easier it becomes to avoid uh apparatus.
And that's not a formula because formula more or less implies some kind of mechanical arrangement, more or less mechanical. Whereas being conscious is not a mechanical arrangement and will never become a mechanical arrangement.
So it's just you know you try to perform your sadhana and deal with the devotees uh in a very conscientious and conscious way.
When I say formula I mean in formula right body, mind, word. Yeah. If if you need if you need formula trinada pisunitinata rarivasa his the formula. The formula is there.
But this is this is the perfect formula which is already there.
And and and the rest is yeah, k and a and the important component of this formula which should not be overlooked or forgotten, which we You usually forget is, you know, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ, because we usually think that the formula is tṛṇād api su-nīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā amāninā mānadena, but there is you know the fourth part of the formula, fifth part of the formula
is kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. And
that's that's exactly, uh, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he gives a very hilarious kind of very funny thing he says that he says that if you chant the holy name offensively uh it uh it's not really helping you in your spiritual practice but he says at least uh you don't do any other nonsense so in this sense it's good so so Okay.
I am good. Yeah. Unintentionally. Unintentional, yeah.
Definitely, it's it's illustration to what Radhakrishna Prabhu said. Definitely that even if uh we committed unintentional offense and even if if there was no offense still, if somebody felt hurt then the offense is there.
Krishna takes the offense.
Managing hurtful organizational changes as leaders
We have to straighten it. same theme in the context of leadership, situation where we have to take decisions and we have to make sure that things are done.
And at the same time we have also to organize things better or improve.
And over a period of time, people with better skill sets manifest and we can see that the Vaishnava community will be pleased more, will be served better, if someone else is given a a certain service. But then someone else has been doing it for a long time.
So in that case, you know, when you make a change in the sevā, then the other person gets hurt and he feels that I've lost this service and then it becomes very disappointing.
So is it that cumulative incidents like this add up to the difficulties for Hilda? That is accumulating the reactions of hurtful sentiments of people whom we speak.
Oh you definitely as a leader we're definitely accumulating the reactions of people whom we hurt. And we are doing it in many different ways. It's practically inevitable, inevitable being a leader and not to offend anyone.
So initially when you started asking your question I thought you asked from the point of view of this old leader, you know, and I thought that this is, you know, for me it would be the the best opportunity to to do something else.
You know, to do something uh in regard to improving the spiritual practice. So well of course you know there is one I
I think that there is if somebody is a sincere devotee, he has been a leader for a long time and naturally he's attached to service and he's attached to certain certain you know certain influence which he has and everything else.
So uh what I would say uh talking from the point of view of the authority of such a person, helping him to come to the next stage is that first of all give it with the utmost honor honoring his real contribution,
explaining it to him and to everyone else that this is for him really the step forward in his devotional career where he can be, you know, maybe safe, yes, sir.
But still he's attached to his... but still, you know, it has to be very clear for him and for everyone else that it's really an opportunity to go forward in the practice of devotional service.
And the most and foremost I would say what is very essential is to kind of secure his place in the society of devotees. If he feels that he has a secure place in the society of devotees, if he is respected,
he will be willing to share his experiences in devotional service with others, you know, you know, to move to this stage that he is more like a counselor and
and there's plenty of things to do, and he's still respected and recognized and his contribution was recognized. So I think in this sense it will be as painless as it could be in
principle, although it may be still because uh sometimes you know we have too much too close association with our position and then becomes a part of our ego and it's very difficult to you know sort it out and take it away.
Yes. Thank you for texting the subject matter. So nicely. One other observation. Concerning, uh, my work, we have an online internet forum where the devotees comment. Nothing they comment on management.
So we use it as an online kind of piece because sometimes they go way too far. So what we've done recently is that in two cases we've had to give suspensions to them that they don't come.
But as management we accept you know we don't we don't try to silence people and silence the words at all. But we allow it to go on until it becomes a slander. It's kind of a smaller at that point we we tend to carry off.
But definitely management we're going to be cursed by so many people. I I mean I get that feeling that it's kind of way away, but I pray, I mean I don't know what your opinion, I need to ask you.
Seeking shelter in the holy name
I pray that if our sincerity is genuine in performing that service and that intention is not there to a friend, then that the Lord will also see that. Absolutely.
Lord will will definitely see it, and as I said, it's almost impossible to uh avoid
the offences, but at the same time it is said that aparāda-sahasrāṇi this uh verse from Padma Purāṇa, from Aparādha-bhañjana- stotra in Padma Purāṇa where it is said that even if you commit uh thousands of of offenses. But you take the complete shelter of the holy name, then gradually, gradually the offenses will be removed.
So this is the ultimate remedy from all offences and uh what we are talking here uh about is our ability to take the complete shelter of the holy name which is also not such an easy thing to do and uh cannot be taken for granted.
So but ultimately yes our hope is there, the you know complete shelter of the holy name and uh therefore, you know, periodically there are some festivals and things like this where we can just forget that we are leaders and just take the shelter of the holy name and do this and only this.
As far as this offensive nature of people, we should definitely not encourage it by our actions and we should be very strong about it. We should uh we should not become the victims of offensive nature of people.
It it would go against their interest. So that they should be strongly discouraged of doing this by means which are available to us. Okay. Okay.
Marjorie, maybe I I didn't catch everybody your answer, but I got almost the sense that you were uh confirming that oh yeah the people are knocking the bus management people are talking bad about management who are they are uh dissatisfied for some reason so I get the impression you said yeah those are offenses but you can be verified in offenses of the managers.
But is it really like that or or sometimes people complain because of their moha and rajas and that's basically their problem. It's not a because they complain the manager is offensive. Necessary.
Necessarily not, necessarily not.
But uh still there is a see uh usually why this offensive nature is developing in people uh uh you know as I said there is a connection between these verses of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura explaining the development of anarthas and he says first and this is igen is very clearly explained in this section which I was trying to elaborate on.
It is said there that you first you commit offenses and then as a result of this four things develop in your heart by Bhaktivinoda. First is tuccha-āsakti, you become attached to very insignificant things.
We become attached to you know uh to pains which other people inflicted to us. We are very attached, negatively but very much attached. We cannot forgive them. You know I know for people the most difficult thing
is just to forgive somebody. They want to cherish this pain which somebody inflicted. So this is one of the manifestations of tuccha-āsakti, the insignificant things which we are attached to.
We're just holding to our uh to our heart. Then Kutinati, the you know fault finding,
and then uh uh svapratiṣṭhatā, the understanding that I have very special kind of type of devotion, which is very offensive but still very special. And matsarya.
So what I want to say is that usually people they develop this sort of nature. Yes, it's propelled by Rajas and Thomas, but it's also uh result of you know of their you know self-deception mechanism which they acquired this Kutinati and things like this
which in turn is a result of aparādhas or fences?
So I wouldn't brand any I definitely I'm not uh you know I wouldn't brand any criticism of the management as an offense, uh definitely, but uh you know there is a good chance that some offensive attitude is behind it as well.
So the the point is that we have to teach people how to, you know, deal with the problems which may be real. The real problems are there, there's no doubt about it, but uh you know, we have to teach people how to deal with it in a responsible way. That's what I mean.
Not just brand or blame anyone for for this. That's did I answer your question? Or still not? Maybe I didn't understand it.
clear to me and I can take the responsibility for that when you were talking about you say it's an offense. I wasn't clear it may be offense. Yeah, but again, I wasn't clear it may be offense by the side of the manager or maybe offense
by the side of the manager or both. No, it's a... it's, you know, if people criticize, basically finding faults, it's definitely offensive. People, you know, how we react to this is another thing, you know.
We shouldn't be too sensitive. It's I think it's a disqualification for a manager if he has if his skin is too thin. He has to have some you know, rhinoceros skin. Definitely he wants to be in this.
So and shouldn't be too sensitive. Ah, you're still not satisfied. I well uh because you asked me I was okay doing that. Uh I I I I don't want to offend you that so I see I agree on the present on the rhinoceros skin.
That's uh certainly a qualification, and we are developing a course on how to develop rhinoceros skin. Uh, but very useful. But what I was saying, okay, uh whatever rhinoceros skin or any other skin,
it's not that people, because again, people, other people couldinate, means it's an offense because they feel bad about some decision which is a totally legitimate decision. In other words, it's not necessary.
Yeah, of course. Of course, of course, of course. Of course, of course.
People as I said, it's again it's not necessarily that we have to take any offense which people take too seriously. You know, sometimes you know we understand that this is this is how it goes. But still we should try to rectify it uh if we hurt somebody's feeling but it's not that we have to you know revert our legitimate decision because somebody took offense.
Absolutely no. Thank you very much.
Balancing righteousness with genuine humility
Huh? Yes, please. Thank you very much for this relevant analysis. And uh what I want to ask you, you have already to a large extent answered.
And just remember the quote from Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja that was quoted by NIRANJANA Swami. He said that uh we may be right, but there's a right way of being right and there's a wrong way of being right.
And uh there are examples of how junior devotees are right and they're being right or wrong and they're being right.
Just to give an example of Śrīla Prabhupāda when he was in a very uh unusual position of junior when he was talking to Lalitāprasāda of her brother of his speech master Very nice story.
And uh they were talking in Bengali Bengali and the disciples couldn't understand what they were talking about, but they could understand that Śrīla Prabhupāda was disturbed Shaoti. Basically Shaolti.
And then they asked for what Major what was the discussion about he said well who was offense against Magura Marashwat. I wasn't I wasn't saying this, I was asking questions. There is no offense in asking questions.
Is here specifically Prabhupada was asking Lalitāprasāda Prabhu saying is it not an offence to say like this. Yeah, so this is an example, perfect example of how genuine devotees can be right in the land.
And my question is uh just to clarify and qualify for us for myself as possible how do people in this in this secret position in the position of leadership can be wrong in right and right and being right possibly wrong demarcation line before the two states of right and being right and wrong in the people in the position of leadership how you see Um
well uh you know uh you can be right and you can be self righteous. And there is a subtle dist uh not so subtle but distinction between being right and being self righteous.
Self righteous means that you you always write and you try to impose your rightness of how you say righteousness or righteousness upon others and it's not in regard
to leaders, but there is a beautiful story in Bhaktivedanta Manor, there is a very senior disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda, Madhukuliṅgā. She's 70 plus years old, maybe almost 80, she's a wonderful devotee, she's cooking and there is one other you know some other devotee is there who takes her shelter and he came once to her saying that I am right, I am right, I am right. Am I not right in this situation?
She looked at him very sternly and she said, Krishna doesn't mean your righteousness. Krishna needs your humility. So she just basically said to him, You may be right, but Krishna doesn't need this.
You may be right in this situation, but Krishna wants to see how humble you are in this particular situation.
As far as leader is concerned, I think that you know we should be again introspective. We should always consult with our superiors and the peers as far as our and if we got the confirmation then we should be very strong in establishing this righteousness but at the same time very humble inside and you know trying to do it in a very humble way but still very strong.
So I think the the key to this uh uh is uh the consultation or association with peers and the superiors. What shall we do? It's already twelve o'clock. Technically Marash, we go up to twelve thirty. I see.
Now of course you are free to uh to interrupt any time you want. But they are all they are all prepared to go into a third, I assume. Although I asked you to assume anything.
Comparing physical sins and spiritual offenses
Yeah, in fact I should assume you are wanting to go if you are hoping to go to one or two o'clock.
Oh um You mentioned earlier on in our lecture that um sin affects the mind and the body, but after all it affects the heart. Is that right? Yeah.
So I wonder what the difference between the mind and the body because sometimes we use both uh for the same purpose. See basically what is the distinction between the mind and the body? Oh, that's simple.
The mind and the heart. The mind and the heart, yes. And that's more tricky. You also, if I remember correctly, you said the body mind, and then you said the soul.
So heart I think is the same soul, at least from what I remember so what how? I just was saying what I heard was that aparadha touches the soul and takes away.
Aparadha touches the soul and takes away the ability to appreciate spiritual culture and activity. Whereas sin affects the body and mind as some square impossible.
So basically what as far as I can understand what it means by this is that we have this original sin or which is a aparadha in our case which is vaimukhya, the desire to be turned away from God.
The nature of uh I don't want to Vaimukhya and Samukhya, Samukhya I turn back towards the Lord, I see the Lord, I am seeing Him in front of me, and I'm serving Him.
So the original problem of all living entities is this vaimukhya and that they want to see something else, they don't want to see God. They don't want to, and but this vaimukhya can have different degrees, so to speak.
My turning away from the Lord may be just on a level of body and mind where I just want to enjoy without being too kind of uh atheistic or demonic in my nature.
I don't do it at the cost of you know denying God's existence, uh denying you know, the purity and saintliness in this world.
Because some people they become so it's also propelled by their propensity to enjoy this world, but this propensity to enjoy this world becomes so strong that they you know they do it through all this sort of uh very offensive attitudes.
Offensive attitudes towards the Lord, towards the you know practice, spiritual practice and towards the devotees of the Lord. So that's what it means.
And uh this is in the soul as far as I know, Vai Mukyata is in the soul, it's not in the mind. It's in the soul proper. So that's what it means.
Uh you in uh What about in a situation where a leader or a devotee asks in a way to to allow others to commit offenses. And the leader or If you instigate or encourage in a way and to to make the devotees commit offenses.
Now where against you? Against me. So they will suffer. And you will suffer too. More than them. Because you instigated them to do it. They are just innocent victims of your of your improper attitude. Yes. Okay, Mahmoud.
Is it correct to say that we can only I mean aparādha when we were given the chance and probably use the chance to turn back to Krishna? Because if we didn't take the chance we don't have any possibility of even attending
anything related? Yes.
In other words, like it was a this discussion about nāmāparādha and the person even if he's uh ridiculous and devotees in content doesn't even aparādha, if he's not a devotee himself, he cannot be an aparādhī. Yes.
So that will be the difference. Yes, exactly exactly this. It's one if I'm just ridiculing because I I think it's funny what they're doing, just changing, dancing, you know, I I really feel it's funny. That's one thing.
Another thing is that I really uh kind of feel inside that this is something about God and uh they're displaying some sort of emotions and I you know start ridiculing them with this intention.
So there is a distinction here too. But definitely the more we are involved in devotional service the more glorious opportunities we have to commit for others.
So in one sense it's a vicious circle which can only be broken if we're very serious about our practice of devotional service.
Yes, the more intimately we're involved, like you know, you you cannot really offend somebody if you are distant from him. But if you're close to him, you really can you know inflict a lot of pain to this person.
And if this person happened to be the pure devotee, you know what?
Reading scriptures for personal self-assessment
Tukaram, prabhu, and Nathan, and the front row, and then uh okay. Maharaj, um, just I want to appreciate something and also ask your question.
You have a unique ability as a scholar, lots of devotees are pundits, they they learn shastra and they can repeat it. Um and then there's devotees who are deep thinkers.
It's very rare when a devotee is learning shastra and is also able to do an application of it. You're talking about yourself. I'm talking about... talking about and
so you demonstrate it like when you when you think in the 360 way about a question you're asked, you've done it a number of times today.
At the risk of being somewhat repetitive, I want to ask you a question very sincerely, asking you to also give me your considered opinion and to use your intelligence to apply the shastra.
For leaders in general, in addition to the Trinity PC and the formula that we recommended as making panacea, in addition to keeping counsel with your seniors, which is what you recommended to other, you know, devotees. Is there anything you specifically say will act as some
kind of a defense against aparadha? Or maybe not an inoculation, I'm not looking for something so simple, but maybe something of a formula, something of a practice, some things that you've seen, some things that you practice in your own life.
And if you want a case study to make it easier, advice you have specifically for me as someone that you know who has some service that involves a little bit of leadership. So if you want to get real personal and real specific, you can please feel free to use myself as an example.
No, what else helps in this regard definitely is studying of the shastras, because if you study shastras properly, then you really, you know, may feel humble. You know, if if you do it as a svadhyaya, if you study shastras as an act of self-analysis or self-introspection, because there is a wrong way of studying shastras when you just try to collect or extract the beautiful points which you will use in your lectures. We all are very familiar with this sort of studying shastras and there is another way of studying shastras when we basically when it is said something bad we immediately
you know we immediately know about whom it is said and it happened to be our enemy usually you know and we just were really amazed how exactly it, is described in the Shastra, and how clear-cut diagnosis is there in the Shastra about his problems.
And I think and when I said something good, it's obviously about you know myself because and also in a very clear way so that's that's one one way of studying shastras another way of studying shastras if
something is bad is being spoken it's about me and trying to see how it's applicable to me to myself this is interesting
this is in uh in the third canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in the twenty-ninth chapter there is mm uh it's uh uh eighteenth verse of 29th chapter, the Kapiladev describes the sadhana or the spiritual practice
which you should do to come from the devotional service in the modes of nature to the pre-pure devotional service, he gives basically four verses where he describes the whole sadhana.
And the last verse of this series, it starts in the 15th verse, 15th, 16th, 17th, and 18th. And the last verse he starts with Adyat Mikanu Shravanam. Nama-saṅkīrtanam, nirahaṅkriyā and what else is there?
There's some four things. Sat-saṅgena and nirahaṅkriyā. So this four things he recommends it's it's it's more or less a very interesting
description of sadhana and first is adhyātmikānuśravaṇam, which is uh I mean from the first point of view very easily translatable so to speak. Adhyātmik means spiritual, anuśravaṇam you continuously listen to this.
Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura he gives a very interesting explanation of this point. Very short but very interesting.
He says that adhyātmikānuśravaṇa means to hear śāstra with the specific purpose to understand which doshas which guṇas you yourself have.
So not just to hear shastras, but to hear shastras to understand what are the defects and the virtues which you have. And this is this is what he calls adhyātmikānuśravaṇam as a part of sādhana.
You know, he doesn't because adhyātmikānuśravaṇam you may have a wrong understanding that this is līlā-kathā you're just immersed in līlā-kathā whereas it's it's a sādhana still and uh uh for sādhaka it's much more important to hear śāstra with this specific purpose in mind.
He's using ātman not in relationship to one. He's using ātman as a mind. In relationship to oneself. Yeah. As a simple reflex of Atma as oneself, as opposed to other experiences, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Huh?
Other three items. Uh uh other three items, nāma-saṅkīrtana chaya uh and then that's very clear. And then uh ārya-saṅgama means the association with the you know pure hearted people, pure devotees, and
nirihankriya you have to do it in a very without ahaṅkāra, without your false sigh, without pride. So that's uh that's what he recommends. Did I answer your question? Mars that was with the whole trip.
Importance of conscious practice and association
Okay. Okay, need an underprant problem. I think we can finish continuing in the afternoon. Our earlier in the discussion when Tukaram Prabhu was asking about how repetition helps
um not only solidify but also remove attendance in your could you please help me understand it caitanya caritāmṛta with the there's also this uh reference that bahu janma
Makare for many lifetimes one can continue their hearing and chanting that they will not get the fruit of uh, thank you. Thank you. So again basically it means understanding what aparādha means
and practicing with the conscious desire to avoid aparādhas. If we do this, then this is the proper spiritual practice, and this proper spiritual practice will bring about results, it will strengthen our saṅmukhya
or our spiritual sort of bodying spiritual nature. And that again is the point that spiritual practice only becomes spiritual practice if it's not mechanical. If it's done in a certain mood, in a certain reverential mood
with śraddhā, with faith and everything else, so that's the answer to this question. If we kind of you know neglect or do not want to confront with our offensive nature. And uh habitually continue our aparādhas,
obviously bahu janma, you know many many lifetimes are there f for us to you know practice in this way without any hopes.
So the only point is that we have to be careful and the as as we know from Caitanya-caritāmṛta the defense from this is the association of devotees because if we have close association of devotees which is like defense, We will be able to guard against the upāsakas and āsat-saṅga without without watering them.
Yes, you ask, Panditrāja, really sorry. You were one of the first ones, and but the first ones will be very interesting, alarming comparison with prahāra and kvārata.
My question is, as leaders, we were put into the situations, um, not by some of us, but we took risk actually when we were young. And so we now we are at 50 and learning so many things here.
So I started like 1991, but nobody was there to teach me anything. So then we evolved into this and then definitely
I might have done many, many aparādhas. At the same time, I might have helped many many devotees to take up Krishna consciousness. So this is a heavy risk here.
In future, after knowing all those things, can you reduce the risk factor? Just become a bhajanānandī or which is a safe side? No. What is your opinion on that?
No, it's not that we should become bhajanānandī after knowing this. This is not the point.
The point is that, you know, some people, they hear this and they become scared, but the point of this uh descriptions is not to scare anyone off the leadership position or of devotional service.
First of all, because even if you are not in a leadership position, it doesn't preclude you from committing offences. Please don't be under an illusion. So you may still continue.
On the contrary, if you took responsibility and Prabhupada was very appreciative of his leaders who would take responsibility because he knew that you know taking responsibility, um, even if it is involved with the risk, um, it also involves with the greater uh you know opportunities or advantages of being purified more quickly because you do have more opportunities to serve others as you said.
And this service is definitely something which is, and when you, you know, feel the results of your service, your attitude, your service attitude is strengthened.
If you feel, you know, good that other people are getting some benefit from your preaching and association, you know, you, you, you get a lot of. Leaders not only have disadvantages, they have a lot of advantages too.
It's just a question of not, uh, you know, and, uh, of not risking the disadvantages of this position and being careful about this and using the advantages to the fullest extent. So this is not, this is not to say this. This is just to say that we as leaders have uh much more grave responsibility to you know to do it properly because otherwise uh the opportunities uh or advantages So we have to be careful and conscientious about this.
Very clear. Yes.
Uh, I was listening from class messing up and he, I think pretty much starts the class by saying that this material body is another. So as long as you have one, then you are subject to those. That's just the understanding.
So it doesn't matter leader or or simple devotee, whatever we want to call ourselves that we have material bodies There is a famous statement by Śrīla Prabhupāda and he somebody came to him and said,
Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a problem. Śrīla Prabhupāda looked at him and said, You don't have a problem, you are a problem. It's not that we have a problem. We have a problem.
So I quotes and kept the bottom of post Jim was one in his commentary that's saying that I think the words he uses um tanomanina papina is the word someone who thinks about himself as a body why that big thing that they're tanomanina papina.
He's a sinna this this is a sinner. Okay, I guess we finish now and then we continue in the afternoon, right? Yes, okay.