Bhagavad-gita 9.30. Love and Trust
Бхакти Вигьяна Госвами · Sweden · 2013
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Opening chanting and invocation prayers
Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Krishna Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Krishna Hare Hare Hare, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Ramoare Ramo, Rama Rāma Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Kṛṣṇa Viṣṇu Viṣṇu Krishna Hare, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Hare Krishna Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Krishna Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Rāma Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Hare Hare Hare Viṣṇu Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Viṣṇu Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Hare Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇāya hard, hareta, hareta, Rāma Rāma hare hare Rāma Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare, Hare, Rāma Rāma,
Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Rāma, Rāma Krishna, Krishna Hare, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Krishna, Hare Hare, Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare,
Hare Rāma Hare Nāma. Om namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, bhagavate vāsudevāya, om namo bhagavate. Om namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, om namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, oṁ namo nārāyaṇāya.
Nārāyaṇaṁ namaskṛtya, naraṁ caiva narottamam, devīṁ sarasvatīṁ vyāsaṁ, tato jayam udīrayet.
Reading Bhagavad-gita on devotional service
Again, I'm very happy and honored to be with all of you this evening. And I was asked to speak on this topic of love and trust, which is a very vast topic. And I will try to speak a few words on this.
And to start the discussion I will read the famous verse from Bhagavad-gītā which is which constitutes the basis of our trust to devotee scriptural brahman? I think you will be surprised to know what is the verse.
Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ. Api in spite of, in spite of cet, cet. Api cet, sudurācāraḥ one committing the most abominable actions.
One committing the most abominable actions. Bhajate engaged in devotional service. Mām unto me, ananya-bhāk without deviation. Sādhu saint, eva certainly, saha he mandavya to be considered samyaka completely vyavasitaha
situated he certainly saha he Translation.
Understanding conditional and constitutional activities
Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.
The word sudurachara used in this verse is very significant and we should understand it properly. When a living entity is conditioned, he has two kinds of activities. One is conditional and the other is constitutional.
As for protecting the body or abiding by the rules of society and state, certainly, there are different activities, even for the devotees, in connection with the conditional life.
And such activities are called conditional.
Besides this, the living entity who is fully conscious of his spiritual nature and is engaged in Krishna consciousness or the devotional service of the Lord has activities which are called transcendental.
Such activities are performed in his constitutional position and they are technically called devotional service.
Now in the condition in the conditioned state, sometimes devotional service and the conditional service in relation to the body will parallel one another.
But then again, sometimes these activities become opposed to one another. As far as possible, a devotee is very cautious so that he does not do anything that could disrupt his wholesome condition.
He knows that perfection in his activities depends on his progressive realization of Krishna consciousness.
Sometimes, however, it may be seen that a person in Krishna consciousness commits some act which may be taken as most abominable socially or politically. But such a temporarily fall-down does not disqualify him.
In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it is stated that if a person falls down but is wholeheartedly engaged in the transcendental service of the Supreme Lord, the Lord being situated within his heart, beautifies him and excuses him from such abomination.
The material contamination is so strong that even a yogi fully engaged in the service of the Lord sometimes becomes ensnared. But Krishna consciousness is so strong that such an occasional fall-down is at once rectified.
Therefore the process of devotional service is always a success. No one should deride a devotee for some accidental fall down from the ideal path.
For as is explained in the next verse, such occasional fall downs will be stopped in due course as soon as a devotee is completely situated in Krishna consciousness.
Therefore, a person who is situated in Krishna consciousness as and is engaged in determination, with determination in the process of chanting.
Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare should be considered to be in a transcendental position even if by chance or accident he is found to have fallen.
The words sādhur eva, "he is saintly," are very emphatic. They are a warning to the non-devotees that because of an accidental fall down, a devotee should not be derided.
He should still be considered saintly even if he has fallen down accidentally.
And the word mantaviah is still more emphatic. If one does not follow this rule and derides a devotee for his accidental fall down, then he is disobeying the order of the Supreme Lord.
The only qualification of a devotee is to be unflinchingly and exclusively engaged in devotional service. The mark of a spot which may be seen on the moon does not become an impediment for the moonlight.
Similarly, the accidental fall down of a devotee from the path of a saintly character does not make him abominable.
On the other hand, one should not misunderstand that the devotee in the transcendental devotional service can act in all kinds of abominable ways.
This verse only refers to an accidental uh to an accident due to the strong power of material connections. Devotional service is more or less a declaration of war against the illusory energy.
As long as one is not strong enough to fight the illusory energy, there may be accidental fall downs. But when one is strong enough, he is no longer subjected to such fall downs as previously explained.
No one should be should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee.
If he does not improve in his character by devotional service, then it is to be understood that he is not a high devotee. Śrīla Prabhupāda hi jaya.
Oṃ ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā cakṣur unmīlitaṃ yena tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ. Militamyana Tasmai Shri Guravenam,
śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhīṣṭaṃ sthāpitaṃ yena bhū-tale svayaṃ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṃ dadāti sva-padāntikam. vande 'haṃ śrī-guroḥ śrī-yuta-pada-kamalaṃ śrī-gurūn vaiṣṇavāṃś ca
śrī-rūpaṃ sāgrajātaṃ saha-gaṇa-raghunāthānvitaṃ taṃ sa-jīvaṃ sādvaitaṃ sāvadhūtaṃ parijana-sahitaṃ kṛṣṇa-caitanya-devaṃ śrī-rādhā-kṛṣṇa-pādān saha-gaṇa-lalitā-śrī-viśākhānvitāṃś ca
he kṛṣṇa karuṇā-sindho dīna-bandho jagat-pate gopēśa gopikā-kānta rādhā-kānta namo 'stu te. tapta-kāñcana-gaurāṅgi rādhe vṛndāvaneśvari vṛṣabhānu- sute devī praṇamāmi hari-priye.
kalpatarubhyaś ca kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ. jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa- Chaitanya Prabunitananda, Sriadvaitamadatara, Srivassadura Vakta Brinda Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Ramo Hare Ramo Ramo Ramo Hare Hare Ajanulamitu Kanakabatatu Sankirtanaikapitaru Kamalaya tak so viswambaru dvijavaru yuadarma palu vandeja priakaro
karunavataru, Yantah Pravishima Vachima Mampra Suptam Sanji Vayatekila Shakti Darah Swadamna, Hanjamarana Sravanat
Importance of association in devotional practice
Vagadim, Pranannamo, Bhagavate, Purusha, tu vois. Devotional service of Bhakti Yoga is extremely dependent on the proper association.
There are different kinds of yogas described in the scriptures. And the yoga in its classical form does not imply close association with others.
Yogis or trying to meditate on the supreme in whichever form they try to approach Supreme. Going high up in the mountains, stay in the caves, and uh avoid any kind of association.
They may have some accidental association with some snakes or spiders, but it's not very deep. It's rather shallow.
So the very process of mystical yoga implies the deep internal meditation inside the heart and the seclusion is very much preferable for this kind of practices.
I remember once we came with a group of very young beginning devotees to a cave where Shankaracharya achieved enlightenment. It's a cave somewhere in the Kulachadri Mountains in Karnataka.
Supposedly if one goes there he gets kind of blessings. You know, it's a special place, so we went there. And it was a group of five, six people, loud people from Moscow.
And to his to his uh you know there was an unfortunate yogi sitting in this cave trying to meditate. And uh you know the ladies, you know, he was he was quite determined. He didn't open his eyes all the time.
But I can imagine was what was happening inside his heart. You know, there was a quite a loud scene. And uh he was he was not showing that he was visibly disturbed, but it was what I want to say, it was quite incompatible.
You know, his attempts to meditate in seclusion in some cave, you know, high up in the mountains, and then some group of you know enthusiastic devotees, you know, engaged in all kinds of activities.
Uh, but nevertheless, bhakti-yoga is a yoga and it's a very deep internal process which at the same time requires very close association with devotees.
In fact, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and, of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda many, many times said that all attempts of yogi meditator to be in a seclusion mostly culminate in some sort of fraud or mockery.
It's not possible in this age. This age is not really meant for silent meditation. I read one book which very beautifully described that you know the
process for this age is a loud kīrtana because, generally speaking, this age is a very loud age. There's a lot of noise. So to counteract this noise we
have to make another kind of noise by loudly chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Hare
In fact, Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī while defining the process of saṅkīrtana introduced by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that saṅkīrtana, the kīrtana, the chanting of the holy name becomes saṅkīrtana, which means the perfect chanting, the complete chanting.
Saṅkīrtana means samyak kīrtana, which means complete, perfect chanting. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī says, bahubhir militvā. His definition is very simple.
When many people come together and chant together, this kīrtana is called saṅkīrtana, perfect kīrtana. So this very definition stresses and emphasizes very much the need of the society of devotees.
We cannot practice bhakti-yoga alone.
Building relationships based on love
It's totally, completely, utterly counterproductive. Because bhakti-yoga means relationship. Relationship based on certain qualities which we are supposed to develop.
Relationship with God based on certain qualities which we are supposed to develop. But we can develop this quality only in relationship with others.
We are more or less rehearsing our relationship with Krishna by entering into deep and meaningful relationship with other devotees.
And without this rehearsal, we will never be able to understand whether we are qualified to enter into a relationship with God.
Every one of us got this ideal: personal relationship with God. Bhakti yoga based on this principle very strongly that God is a person, you're a person, you're eternally a person, He is eternally a person. Bhagavad Gita starts from this point.
Krishna says that you, myself, and all these kings are eternally there. This personal philosophy is very strong, and person means relationship, relationship based on love and trust.
Ultimately, what we want, the ideal which we are striving for, is to enter into the relationship with God based on love and trust. And this is called devotional service.
Here we are in this material world, people who have forgotten what it means to love God and to trust God. We don't trust God. Because if we would trust Him, we would surrender to Him. We don't want to surrender.
Normally, people in this world don't want to surrender to anyone because of the very deeply rooted mistrust. And definitely, we don't want to love him because without trust, there is no question of love.
There is no question of closeness. There is no question of close relationship. So this ideal of love and trust is the highest possible ideal, which is the definition of bhakti yoga itself.
But before entering into the loving and trusting relationship with God, we have to learn how to trust the devotees, how to trust people who are of the same species of life, who are of the same family.
Basically, what we want to do, our highest ideal, highest spiritual ideal, to enter into the family of God.
And in order to be able to be qualified to enter into the family of God, into this environment of very close relationship which are there in the spiritual world and the highest abode of the spiritual world, we have to really see whether we're capable of doing it at all.
Yes, we want to enter into the spiritual world, but do we belong to the spiritual world? Like the example which is given by Hridayananda Maharaja in the 11th canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
If you want to go to the Sun planet, there's no problem. You can go to Sun Planet. There are plenty of living entities living in the Sun planet.
The only little difficulty would be to enter in the present body which consists mostly of water.
It will not be very, you know, functional on the sun planet due to the natural conditions which are prevalent on the sun planet. So in order to enter the sun planet, everyone can enter the sun planet.
But we have to change the body. Our body has to become fiery, conducive to the atmosphere.
In the same way, we can enter the spiritual world, but we have to change our body. Our body has to be of the same nature as the spiritual world.
And spiritual world is another uh definition or another uh denomination of the spiritual world is bhāva-jagat. This world, world of matter, is called jaḍa-jagat.
Jaḍa-jagat means uh jaḍa-jagat means the part of the universe which consists of the gross and inert matter. And bhāva-jagat means that everything in the spiritual world consists of love.
The bodies of the living entities in the spiritual world, it's nothing else but love. It's the highest possible perfection of the development of consciousness
where your whole body, everything which belongs to the body, just consists of love.
When Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is described in Caitanya-caritāmṛta in Madhya-līlā, in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Rāmānanda Rāya, uh her body is described in these terms.
You know, how we can understand what it means? It's very difficult to understand. Everything consists of love. Your ears consist of love, your your clothes consist of love,
your earring is uh love earring. You know all the decorations which are there, it's love, it's nothing else but love. It's bhāva-jagat. There isn't no trace of anything else, it's just pure love.
And to be qualified to enter this atmosphere, you know, we we can't just enter with this body. It will not be functional there. It will be totally counterproductive and uh we will not be able to do anything.
We will be such a, you know, nonsense there. You know, we have our, you know, and if we if we look in our uh you know inner body, mental body, there's so much garbage there.
Overcoming inner envy to develop trust
Therefore, in the very beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it is said very emphatically: Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ, dharmaḥ kaiṭavā-projjhitaḥ, paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām. Matsaranam Satam, Dharma Kaitava Projeta, Paramonir Matsaranam Satam.
The thing which is completely, totally opposite to love. There is an ideal of love. And person means love. The personal relationship means love, relationship based on love.
And there is something which is totally completely opposite, 180% opposite to it, contrary to it, completely in kind of you know in clash in clash with love. This is envy. So an envy creates many different things in our heart, including mistrust.
Mistrust is nothing else but the creation of the deeply rooted envy in our heart. And we have to change it. And we have to change it here. There is no interim place where we can do it. Uh you know, we have to change it here.
And the most beautiful thing is that we can't change it here. We can completely change our body, even while living here, while staying here in this world, and consist only of pure love.
But for that, the society of devotees is necessary. Without society of devotees, we will never be able to understand what is happening in us, in our heart. We will imagine, yes.
And imagining we are very, you know, we are very quick in doing this. We'll just sit and we will imagine. Oh yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understood everything. I am a pure devotee. Yeah.
Give me a visa into the spiritual world. No, no, no. Krishna will say, go to your temple president, he will give you his. He will have to issue the visa. Go to your spiritual master.
Enter into the loving relationship with the spiritual master and the loving relationship with other devotees, they have to certify that you is capable of doing it, that you can do it.
And if you cannot, uh, there is no question of uh entering into relationship with God. Actually, there is a very difficult part of our philosophy that is relationship with the spiritual master.
Relationship with the spiritual master is not an easy thing. Because we know there is so much emphasis in our literature that we have to take the spiritual master as God. He's the same as God.
And how you know what the heck it that means. What what is it? You know. How we should understand this this guy, how how what do you mean he's gone?
You know, I I remember very clearly, you know, when I was just I I just it was my pra practically first encounter with a devotee and devotees in Russia at that time very fanatical. They were very fanatic.
They're still very fanatical. But at the time they were a hundred times more fanatical. So somebody took a picture of a spiritual master and kind of pushed on me and said, «This is your spiritual master. He is God.
I said I—I looked at him and he had glasses and I said, you know, what do you mean, he's God, you know? I—I never thought that that—that God can have glasses, what do you mean? What is the meaning in it? Wha what is it?
But uh actually, you know, the—the—and and so many people can't understand this.
They say, oh, everyone is just—everyone is just a fallen, you know, fallen nonsense, you know, the only Prabhupada, you know, and but to say that only Prabhupada is his spiritual master, it's basically, mm, to say that I—that that that I cannot enter in a proper relationship with anyone.
It's actually the onus is on me. Uh if I want to become a proper disciple, I have to accept somebody wholeheartedly, giving my heart to him and meditating and
you know entering into the relationship and serving wholeheartedly. Sometimes uh Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī gives this beautiful example of cātaka bird.
Cātaka bird is a special kind of bird which will not take any water from the ground. It will take water only from the cloud.
And Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī says, «Oh, my Lord, I want relationship with you as much as cātaka bird wants the water from the Śyāma cloud.
And sometimes there is some lightning coming from the cloud. Not water, but still cātaka bird, and that doesn't go down, take all the days. And it basically means that I—I only want pure love and no matter what it cost.
The relationship is not an easy thing. Relationships, especially in this world, are often painful. And even in the spiritual world, they are painful sometimes. Of course this is a special kind of pain.
This is a different pain.
It's a transcendental pain, but transcendental or not, it's pain. Lord Caitanya says, by taking the mood of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, Śrīla Prabhupāda, darśana-marma-hatām karotu vā—you—you can—you can break Vapadaratampinastu Mama Darsana Marmahatam Karotuva, you you can you can break my heart», he says.
You know, uh—y—you—you're still my Lord and Master. I love you, I only want to love you.
And this is the condition which we have to create in our heart. This is the condition, this is the mood which ultimately has to be created in the course of our spiritual practice. The mood of complete surrender, complete love. No matter what.
And we have to really understand whether it's happening with my heart or not.
Facing fear of deep personal relationships
And I can only know this by interacting with devotees and by entering deeply in this interaction. You know, the point is that, and this is a very hard thing to swallow, especially in Sweden.
You know, people tend to be a little shallow in their relationship. I mean it's it's it's just a Western disease.
People because of the um so much pain which is there in the personal interactions, they become very cautious and they don't want to enter too deeply into relationships because they know, you know, it's I'm up for trouble.
You know, there will be some trouble for sure. What we see in the modern civilization is that people are being more and more deprived of the joy of deep and meaningful relationship.
Because they don't know how to do it and to avoid this and uh you know they had too much pain and to avoid this they just want to have a very, very shallow interaction and basically, they don't trust anyone.
This mistrust is all pervading. And another name for mistrust is impersonalism. It's nothing else. You know, I I I I don't trust anyone. You know, I don't trust anyone.
But in order to practice bhakti-yoga, we have to learn how to enter into this uh deep relationship even at the risk of some pain the pain will be there trust me. I know it will be there. It will be there.
But uh still the reward is much higher. You know, if we still try to enter into this deep meaningful relationship with each other, even at the risk of some pain.
And if we are determined, and if we are basing our relationship on this trust that he's a sincere devotee and I'm trying to be a sincere devotee. He is struggling and I'm struggling.
Yes, you know, he's not perfect, I'm not perfect, but still, you know, I want to serve him. And I want to learn how to love him. And I want to know the treasures of his heart.
There will be a very deep reward. What to speak about the same kind of dynamic with the spiritual master. If we do it in our relationship with spiritual master, if we try to develop this sort of relationship, ultimately, we will be
recognized by God. You know, this ability to trust no matter what is actually based on our trust in the process of Krishna consciousness. If we trust that the process of Krishna consciousness can purify anyone.
Even the most abominable sinner, as is described in this verse. If we trust this point, that we are in the process of purification and we will be purified. Sooner or later we will be purified.
Then uh there will be no impediment in our relationship with other people. And we will uh do this uh and we will be rewarded uh at the end by uh by developing real qualities.
Now Śrīla Prabhupāda, and I wanted to give a few examples from the life of Śrīla Prabhupāda himself. He emphasized this so much.
Because he knew if we give way to our inner propensities, which are nothing but the creation of envy.
If we just more or less agree with the envy within our heart and allow envy to rule our interaction with people, our relationship with people, then we will not achieve anything in our spiritual life.
We will never understand what is really happening in our heart. We will never be able to purify our heart even if we uh chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because uh without relationship, without uh Without real relationship.
It's not possible to develop humility, it's not possible to develop other qualities.
Prabhupada's example of trust in Hawaii
And there is a beautiful story from Śrīla Prabhupāda's life which I wanted to share with you today. There was it's a very interesting story actually. In Hawaii there was one devotee who was the temple president.
And one well-wisher of our society came to him and donated to him the whole restaurant.
And this devotee just saw that, you know, it's very nice. And he put this restaurant on his own name and more or less kind of, you know, appropriated this restaurant. You know, usual story.
I'm sure you heard these kinds of stories.
You know, somebody comes with his open heart, gives a huge donation and some clever guy in between is just you know says yeah right very nice thank you very much I will use it in Krishna's service.
So and uh he we will not name this devotee, it doesn't matter. Śrīla Prabhupāda came to know about this.
Another devotees naturally, you know, leaders of the society, they were very concerned and they wanted to correct the whole situation.
And Śrīla Prabhupāda came to Hawaii and he spoke with this devotee who more or less stolen the whole thing from the society and from Śrīla Prabhupāda. And Śrīla Prabhupāda asked him, you are my disciple.
He said, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm your disciple. And you know, when people donate something, they donate to you or to me? He said, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they donate to you.
So when somebody donated restaurant to to you, to whom it belongs, the devotee thought a little bit that he said, it belongs to me. So he was quite insistent in this. The Prabhupāda's logic didn't work in this case.
There was some block. So the Śrīla Prabhupāda, you know, he started consulting with other leaders after this unsuccessful attempt to straighten this devotee. And he asked other leaders, what shall we do?
Shall we go to court or not? Shall we really punish this guy? Shall we go to court or not? And you know the leaders say, yeah, of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda, of course, definitely. We have to go to court. We have to do it.
Śrīla Prabhupāda, he became very thoughtful. And then he said, no.
If we do it, we will not be different from any other karmis, and ultimately we will lose our spiritual life because the spiritual life is based on love and trust. I was totally completely shocked when I read the story.
Because it doesn't sound like Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda was a very practical man. He once said I'm a Kolkata boy, so nobody can cheat me.
So he was very practical down-to-earth person with a very clever you know intelligence and approach but he said this beautiful phrase very deep phrase he said, if we do it, we will lose our spiritual life.
Because the very spiritual life, the very foundation of spiritual life is based on our ability to still trust and to still love, no matter what.
And Śrīla Prabhupāda's ability to trust people was practically inconceivable. People would make mistake after mistake after mistake.
Come to him, repent, and Śrīla Prabhupāda would again give his full support and trust to them.
So many stories of this, you know, there is, you know, so many stories. And some people would criticize even him, or some, you know, criticize directly or indirectly him saying that you know why did he trust this guy or that guy or this guy or that guy because he wanted to teach us how we should enter into our relationship.
It's not easy to trust because people will betray you, because people will make some mistakes, because there will be some problems. But still, the higher principle is trust.
We have to be practical, we have to be intelligent, no doubt about it. But still, there is the higher value, which is trust, which can change the other person.
The value of trust is that if the other person feels some trust coming from you, then he can grow. You know, if you don't trust a little child, the child will never grow. The child will always remain a useless child.
If the child, if you always, you know, if you just don't do it, you know, you just make mess, you know, the child will never grow.
To help somebody to grow, to help somebody to develop, this uh this very important thing has to be there, the trust.
Seeing devotees according to their ideal
You know, and trust is based basically on this verse. Somebody is doing crazy things, but he's a sincere devotee. We have to trust him on this basis.
And Prabhupāda says that Krishna is very emphatic here. He says, ever, ever. And mantavyach. Mantavyak basically, this is the how you call it, imperative.
Mantavyak is imperative in Sanskrit means he has to be considered as a saintly person. Has to be considered as a saintly person.
You have to see and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he gives also another very interesting thing, he said, when you enter into relationship with devotee, you should never judge him according to his present state. You should judge him according to his ideal.
When you enter into relationship with a devotee, don't see how he is now. See what he wants to be.
And relate with this, not relate with his present state of affairs, relate with his potential, with his ideal, with his uh you know what he is striving for, with his goal. If we do this, uh the society will be amazing.
If this kind of relationship will be established among the devotees, the relationship of of kind of intelligent trust
no matter what and you know uh then then uh people will will grow and develop spiritually and even emotionally, very, very quickly. And for that, relationships are necessary.
You can only trust somebody if you have relationship with him. You know, and for relationship you have to, you know, really go deep and and kind of try to understand this person, not judge him.
One devotee recently had a very beautiful meeting among the Russian leaders, and one devotee gave a very beautiful formula which I wanted to share with you.
He said that relationship uh uh s is something different than uh uh how did he uh uh how should I translate it uh into English?
He said sometimes we uh we think that relationship is just a um uh uh how how to translate it into English?
It's just uh uh uh in the meantime while trying to translate into English as I I forgot how it sounds in Russian I still remember the meaning which I want to convey, but it's we very beautifully put it.
He basically said that you know in the society of devotees we want to make everything perfect. And we think that the relationship is just a very kind of smooth, yeah, right. Smooth interaction.
That every if everything is smooth and we are interacting in a very smooth way without any problems, then we have relations. This is not relationship.
You know, if if the interaction is very smooth, sometimes we may get some superficial kind of satisfaction. But ultimately the soul is not satisfied with this.
Relationship is much deeper than this just a smooth interaction between people.
You know, nobody likes this, you know, rough interaction, so we want to kind of smooth everything, you know, and make everything nice, but you know, it's relationships are not always nice, but they are they are good.
They are important. And sometimes relationships are as I said, they may be a little painful. But what I mean to say is that if we are, uh how shall I say it?
If we are determined to enter into some meaningful and deep interaction with other people, based on Krishna consciousness, based uh on the ideal of Krishna consciousness, based on Krishna Katha, on the philosophy of Krishna consciousness.
And actually I've seen how one can develop very strong relationship uh with other people just by discussing the philosophy of Krishna consciousness with them in a very open way.
Then there will be very quick and in one sense easy changes within our heart.
And if we are tactfully avoiding it, trying to smooth everything down and you know, kind of, you know, everything is fine, nice, you know, hey, hey, doll right. Well you know don't don't come to me close and I will not I promise to you I will not come too close to you.
You know, so then uh then nothing will happen.
Cultivating humility through Vaisnava relationships
Once I heard Shivara Maharaja's lectures and he he made a very beautiful point.
He said if we take this verse about which Lord Chaitanya says that every Vaishnava has to take this verse and put it on the string and around his neck and you know, always remember this verse. Tṛṇād api su-nīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā amāninā mānadena kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. He said that everything in this verse is about relationship.
You can only be more humble than the grass, more tolerant than the tree, ready to give respect, and not expecting respect from others if you are capable of entering into relationship with other devotees.
You will never be able to reach this ideal without the society of devotees and without your consistent endeavors to enter into this sort of relationship.
Anyway, I just wanted to also give a few other examples of how Prabhupada trusted other people. You know his his uh as I said his ability to trust others was uh very high. Atma Tattva Prabhu tells a very beautiful story.
He said that once he was he just got initiation and Prabhupada was there in Delhi temple.
And he was, you know, cleaning the temple room and one uh rather old uh Indian gentleman entered and he said, I want to get initiation from Prabhupada.
And I spoke with other devotees of yours, and they said, no, you cannot get initiation from Prabhupada. You cannot get initiation from him.
You have to join the temple and you have to stay in the temple at least six months and do some menial service and he said I am sick and I have you know I have problems with my leg but I really want to take initiation from Prabhupada.
And at Madhattva Prabhu he became a little you know considerate and compassionate and he said to this gentleman, you know, you please come in the evening when Prabhupada would give darshan, bring some fruits, and I will arrange a meeting with Prabhupada. Let's see what he will say about this.
So this gentleman came in the evening, he brought some fruits and he was really sincere and you know the rules were very strict in the society he didn't have any chance and he came and said he said Prabhupada can you give me Hari Nam?
Can you teach me how to chant Hare Krishna mantra? Prabhupada says, yes I can. Yes I can. You know, do you know Hare Krishna mantra? He said, yes, yes, I know Hare Krishna Mantra. That much he knew.
You know, Prabhupada was ready to trust him even if he didn't know, but at least he wanted to make sure that he knows. And Prabhupada said, I will teach you now how to chant Hare Krishna Mantra.
He took the beats, his beats, and he said, It's like this, you know, you chant on one beat, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Rāma, Rāma, Rāma. Ram Ramadari. Then you go to another beat.
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare. Then another beat Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare. So Prabhupada chanted one round of Hare Krishna mantra on his beats, gave these beats to him
and said, please take it and chant as I as I showed you. And that was saying, he said, you know, you got initiation at this very moment. And he said uh he said I I I used to visit this person.
This person who, you know, was never prominent or whatever. This person he would chant always in front of big picture of Prabhupada. One time I came to Delhi after some absence in Delhi and I went
to his home as usually, and uh uh the his relatives told me that he left his body and they told me how he left his body.
They told me that for the last week of his life, this gentleman didn't do anything, he would just chant constantly, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma, Rāma, Rāma with tears in his eyes.
And this is how little trust of Prabhupada completely transformed the heart of this particular person.
You know, when we enter into this relationship with devotees, we really have to see uh you know how much the trust can can give to another person.
And you know, of course in the society rules are necessary, in the society precautions are necessary.
And initially and this is a natural dynamic and then initially when the society is very close and very small, you know, it's like a family relationship is there.
And everyone who was there in the beginning of the society he's kind of hankering. Where is this family relationship? Now everything is formal.
So many rules, you know, recommendation, temple president, this guy, that guy, you know, just bureaucracy. It's necessary. It's n it's a necessary natural development of the society when it grows.
But still Prabhupāda emphasizes still that the family atmosphere should be there and ultimately, the very foundation of this thing should not disappear.
The tendency is unfortunately, when the society becomes more formalized to replace the trust by all kinds of rules and precautions and everything else and regulations and restrictions and this and that.
But there is no replacement for trust. The spiritual society can only be based on trust, nothing else.
Encouraging fellow devotees in spiritual life
You know, there is a beautiful story which is m one of my favorite ones about Prabhupāda. I d I I don't know if I no, I don't think I no, I didn't tell it.
This this story is uh happened in Māyāpur. Māyāpur Prabhupāda once was walking towards Gaṅgā and it was before the Māyāpur festival so many leaders came and leaders would accompany him in his morning walk.
And all these leaders they just surrounded Prabhupāda and everyone was complaining about everyone else. He's this guy and he's this guy and this guy he entered my zone.
And he did in my zone days and he distributed some books in my zone.
How how dare he do this and this and you know Prabhupāda was he was just silent and everyone was just, you know, sh and this and all of a sudden, after f for a long time it went on, all of a sudden
Prabhupāda stood and he turned around and he took his cane and he made such a you know very wide movement with his cane and what's happening and Prabhupāda said in a very loud voice I came just to encourage.
And you came just to discourage each other. And then he thought for some time. It was complete silence. Prabhupāda repeated again. I came just to encourage and you came just to discourage. And then he turned and walked.
And everyone was completely changed and said, oh Prabhu, Prabhu, please accept my humble obeisances, please forgive my offences, please. So he gave this formula, which we have to remember.
This is uh actually this is a beautiful formula of our interactions. Why we are in the society of devotees, what is our role in the society of devotees? There is only one role. We are here to encourage others.
There is no other role. If we want to serve others, the service to others is just to encourage them. Everyone is struggling in spiritual life. It's not easy. The spiritual practice is not easy.
Everyone encounters some problems. But why do we flock together? There's only one reason. Because we want to encourage each other.
And by encouraging each other, we will get encouragement from Krishna and from Prabhupada and from other devotees, and we will always constantly encouraged in our spiritual life.
But unfortunately, as a matter of rule in this world, something opposite is happening. We just came to discourage each other. We just somehow or other we're trying to discourage.
And this is nothing but manifestation of our either direct or indirect envy. The envy is there. Envy and mistrust is the same. And love and trust is also the same. It's basically the same thing.
So if we want to love Krishna, we have to develop loving relationship with others. And they may be, as Krishna says, the most abominable of bumps of Stockholm. Still We uh we are just here to
try to encourage to try to enter into deep relationship and of course you know, we shouldn't be idealistic, we shouldn't do it indiscriminately.
Everything else, everything which I said doesn't mean stupidity or indiscrimination or uh. But still, you know, the trust uh uh should be there.
They endeavor to enter into relationship based on trust should be there, even with the risk of being uh um being uh let down or betrayed even.
Anyway, I just said something, I don't know what did I say, but I guess uh I guess Prabhupada is teaching us by his example. Sometimes we are too much into this mood, you know. He doesn't deserve trust.
Why? So many reasons may be there. But Krishna says in this verse, if he is sincere and if he is trying, he deserves trust. So much so that we have to consider him to be a saint.
Despite some apparent discrepancies or difficulties which he may manifest at times.
So this should be there. And if this relationship are established very strongly then the society will be able to transform people very quickly.
This transformational process, which is normally very painful, very difficult process, doesn't happen so easily.
Will become very easy and uh and uh kind of enjoyable if this principle is established as an absolute rule in the interactions of devotees.
And I've seen it in some sections of our society where this rule is very um firmly established then devotees they make very quick progress together uh and their service is very pleasing to uh Krishna and to spiritual master.
Addressing broken trust in spiritual leadership
Okay, thank you very much. Thank you very much for a very nice uh topic of love and trust. We naturally understand that devotees want to love and want to trust Krishna or possible Krishna's consequences.
Yes, we've seen in the history of history where there's been so many violations of this trust, especially amongst uh leadership, interposition of power, leadership, for this temple president, the GBC, the GBC, the guru.
And devotees naturally want to trust them, they want to follow them, they want to submit Yeah, there was a breach of trust. Yeah. Yeah.
reaction is my trust, yeah, what I thought was Prabhupada, Krishna through the agency of this individual, with that trust in which corrupted ego So this this this is something that I personally witnessed so many times.
Uh I have my own story of uh in the early eighties in California. It was Ramesvara's, Ramesvara's zone, Los Angeles and uh um Adridhara was in Berkeley there was this schism between not only the two gurus but
the followers of the gurus and they were quite literally quarrel and fight and and argue and create all kinds of uh barats.
Then uh he started a center in San Francisco under the guise of love and trust. That was his big preaching motto. Okay, we can see that these two leaders have have fallen from
the pure presentation of Krishna consciousness, but then he wanted to attract those Prabhupada disciples specifically who were alienated from what was developing in California.
But even even Aindra Rishi became included by and those are very
difficult years of this kind where devotees and great positions of power positions destroyed many uh specifically Prabhupada disciples' trust in ISKCON. Not trust in the process of Krishna consciousness, but trust in the organization of this.
Perhaps you can address a little bit how we we can develop our love and trust for Prabhupada and Krishna and the process of Krishna consciousness, but um that's how sometimes ISKCON may not as an organization, as a society we need to always live up to those ideals that are there in Prabhupada's books and how the leaders we have always live up with to those to those ideals and how we're expected to surrender to those leaders.
That's it takes time to actually trust anyone. Especially when it comes to devotees who have been through many trials That's definitely another side of the coin which has to be addressed.
And as I said, uh to m value the trust as a principle, I have a question. Can I say something and then definitely you can speak. I I'm sorry if I bothered you. I'm I'm not uh used to being a I'm sorry. Okay.
Let him answer that first, okay?
Practicing intelligent trust without exploitation
Okay. As I said that uh you know to value the trust as a principle doesn't mean to be stupid, doesn't mean to be, you know, to allow others to exploit you.
And that's basically the one of the very important messages of Mahābhārata.
In Mahābhārata Krishna teaches us that devotee doesn't exploit others but he doesn't tell that he shouldn't be stupid to allow others to exploit him. So this is a this is a very fine point.
And therefore in Mahābhārata so many stories of this sort uh uh are there, you know. If if somebody is crooked, you have to be crooked with him.
At the same time and it's it's not an easy thing because at the same time we value uh completely different things, we value the straightforwardness and everything else uh of the different sort but uh at the same time in our external dealings or in dealings with other people we we will have sometimes to manifest something completely different.
So uh and to to do this uh requires a lot of inner maturity. Uh you know, uh just few words, I I'm sure I will not be able to answer your question completely because it's a very deep discussion.
But basically, uh I can say this thing: that uh despite of all the problems which are there and which will be there, we still have to preserve in a very high position within our heart, this value of trust.
But at the same time, we have to be intelligent enough of not allowing other people to exploit us, to inflict pain to us, or at least, you know, we we have to be, you know, we don't have to be in other words stupid.
But, uh, and if it happened, uh, definitely we will have to somehow rather digest this traumatic experience, which is not easy, but it's possible to digest this traumatic experience because what happens when some traumatic experience takes place in our life and it's not digested.
And a very strong painful samskara is left. And this samskara is not really properly philosophically with the help of Buddhi or our intelligence is properly understood,
then this samskara will influence all our interactions in the future and deprive us the ability to enter into some meaningful relationship.
So the first thing which I would say answering your questions, uh first of all, it's definitely very bad. Especially when somebody in a position of power betrays, uh, uh, him, it's, uh, unforgettable, unpardonable.
Uh, it's a very bad thing, and, uh, everyone who has some little power has to be very careful about misusing this power.
Prabhupāda, there is a beautiful also story about him. You know, the leaders were quarreling with each other. And Prabhupada, again, the same sort of a scene and
uh some leaders in front of Prabhupada were quarreling with each other and Prabhupada he, he kind of, he, uh, you know, made a very disgustful kind of face and the
very strong expression of disgust appeared on his face and he said, "I gave I gave you little power and you just misuse it and quarrel with each other. Give you little power and you just totally completely blow it."
But anyway, having said this, if, if I, if I am to say something meaningful, uh, in answering your question, uh, besides uh, giving some nice but difficult to follow advice is you don't allow to be exploited or whatever.
If this happened with us, then what we have to do, we have to try to digest these things so that in
in our future interaction with people it would not, uh, uh, chase us or harass us or, uh, uh, uh, kind of completely influence our other relationship.
Because the worst thing which can happen, and unfortunately it happens all the time, some painful experiences there in our life, and we start seeing the whole world uh through this painful experience.
And by this, we deprive ourselves of uh of something very valuable. We may deprive ourselves.
So it's a duty of an adult intelligent person, either on his own, with help of Śrīla Prabhupāda, his instructions, his books, or with the help of somebody who is close to him, which is ideal, better, who is loving and uh very uh you know helpful to try to go through this experience and kind of understand why it happened to understand our own role and sometimes we do play some role.
You know, it's I I I I don't necessarily want to blame everything on us, it's not it's counterproductive, but you know to understand, understand this and that.
And uh to make this experience less um traumatic inside so that uh when we enter into another relationship uh this kind of past experience would not necessarily again quite foolishly blind us from seeing other person because uh you know s sometimes we s see this and that and and then we we make a very foolish statement that that unfortunately happens all also.
You know, everyone else is just useless and fallen and nobody can be trusted. And you may have serious reasons to make this statement, but ultimately this statement is not very productive.
So this is one thing I can say that this is one thing. And and definitely I you know we shouldn't be foolish to deny that this may happen, that this is happening.
And for that, basically, as far as I can see, if if we talk about some precautions, so that it would not happen in the future.
The only precaution in this regard would be to train the leaders and to establish very highly in a society the value of humility.
What happens with the leaders, leaders they take some position but they forget that the ideal of vaiṣṇava life is not to become a leader of any sort.
Defining spiritual leadership through service
The ideal of vaiṣṇava life is to become lower than the blade of grass, which may be somewhat contrary to the position of a leader or may not be anyway just a few things. very much.
Uh in his holiness rather than this one he gave a nice uh analogy uh just recently class how uh he attended one seminar by chance actually was invited to speak it up the group gathering they had various seminars going. So but one of the seminars he attended was on leadership.
And the the people that gave the basically saying that yes, a good leader is someone who actually serves the interests of the people that he's leading and actually becomes a servant of those people rather than trying to manipulate control and control. Position, but as a some service position to serve those who are under need.
Yeah, because ultimately the success, even in this world, is based on spiritual principles. If it's a lasting success, if we if we want to achieve lasting success in this world,
because this world is actually part of the kingdom of God. And therefore, any lasting success,
If we take any successful person in this world we will see spiritual qualities in him and see how he manifests spiritual qualities. So and you know, leadership means you are the servant of everyone.
When Prabhupada was giving a lecture in Uppsala here in Sweden, he was talking about the four classes of people. The first class people, second class people, third class people and fourth class people. About varṇāśrama.
Probably the worst topic to take in Sweden. Democratic values are so deeply ingrained in everyone that everyone was disturbed and you know and that in front of the students. This is only Śrīla Prabhupāda could do it.
So and uh when he finished his talk one student got up and he was visibly disturbed and he said, and of course, and the student said in a very challenging mood, he said, and of course you think you are the first class person, right?
And Prabhupada started crying. He said, no, I'm the fifth class because I am serving everyone. And you know, some tears glided down his cheeks because he was a good leader. Good leader means someone who is ready to serve.
Śrīla Prabhupāda started this movement. This movement was based on his service. He was the only one who served to everyone else.
He would give lecture, he would chant kirtan, he would cook, and then when everyone would eat, he would just clean their plates.
And it took some time before somebody approached him and said, Swamiji, can I help you washing the plates? And before he would he would buy everything. It's all based on his service that that's what leader means.
Leader means someone who serves everyone.
But again still you know you you you raised a very important thing but uh what I want to say in answer to you we shouldn't allow even these things happen. We shouldn't allow the thing to alter our relationship with others or to influence our relationship with others in a negative way or deprive us the uh the joy of trustful and loving relationship with others.
One of the ways I've done it, I I appreciate your point very much, is that in all these situations that I personally found myself in where I saw the beliefs were in some position of mediation or corruption.
The offending devotees in different ways, right and left. And so Christian consciousness as a science is a science. You can't maintain your position in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, inevitably. Inevitably. Yeah.
It doesn't distract from my my trust I can share you with you very small experience which I have interesting experience in uh some time ago we have quite a traumatic experience with our leader.
Everyone who is here went through some sort of a crisis at that time. And because I was a leader at the time in Russia, and in Russia it took a very ugly shape at times,
I I was in a very deep emotional kind of uh state uh going through this crisis because so many devotees you know spat at me physically you know and uh you know it was it was quite difficult time.
Uh s you know I uh actually amongst some of the devotees I was known as a Judas. I was I was the traitor. And I you know was not not an easy period in my life.
And at that time Radhanat Maharaj came and to Russia and we were talking with him.
We went to some kind of seclusion for a couple of days to be a little away from the madness because the madness was going on day in and day out for weeks and weeks and weeks in a row.
It was so much, you know, and Radhanath Maharaja, he started telling me about his experiences in New Vrindavan of a similar sort.
Also extremely traumatic and and amazingly enough when I heard uh the whole story I was totally completely consoled by it.
I was very you know it gave me a lot of peace because what I noticed, I noticed that basically it was the same story. With the little changes here and there in details.
But uh when I heard exactly the same story with this very similar dynamic, in inner dynamic and very similar kind of things which happened, I realized that this is a science, as you said.
And there is a mechanism, and this mechanism works, and uh this mechanism creates this sort of situations uh which maybe not but what what I realized that you know there is basically what I realized that Krishna is behind that, he is there, and he is arranging this and that gave me a lot of solace uh in my heart because
Importance of forgiveness in spiritual community
you know yeah it happens and but, you know, there is you know th there is a certain laws which have to be uh which are in place and which are working in this situation and ultimately, you know, we just have to know the science and uh not to deviate from the science. That's it. So thank you very much.
Yes, advice. Uh, I wouldn't like to bore you with all my history of ISKCON. I have learned to forgive. to learn to forgive. This movement is a pioneering movement and we're going to make mistakes.
Pioneering movements make mistakes. You understand me? Yes. Very much. I mean I prayed to Krishna and tried to find the answer to these poems also. And Krishna has told me that I should forgive people.
I should forgive them and let's get on with Krishna consciousness in that respect. Yeah.
Because if we don't forgive the uh uh there is a beautiful comparison, you know, if we don't forgive, if we cherish revengeful feeling inside our heart, it's as if we have a charcoal uh in in our heart and it's always burning and we're always waiting when the opportune moment will come when I will take this charcoal and throw it into my offender. In the meantime, I'm burning from inside.
And who is hurt more? Myself or or uh the offender. The actually the revengeful feeling is harmful for myself, not for anyone else.
It's a very it's a very uh unintelligent uh device, psychological device, very destructive psychological device. Yes, forgiveness is definitely a virtue.
It is said that the brāhmaṇas, uh, this is the main quality of a brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa has to be forgiving. This is a quality of beauty of a brāhmaṇa.
It is said that uh women are beautified by chastity and the brāhmaṇas are beautified by forgiveness, by the ability to forgive.
There's so many mistakes we have done in Krishna consciousness in the past to look at the positive things that Krishna consciousness has given us and the opportunities that it's given us, and they weigh much more than the negativities of this in that Yeah.
Yeah, ISKCON is an amazing organization. No doubt about it.
this and uh I think it's mercy of Prabhupāda who invested so much of his tapasya and love and everything in this con. And we are still the kind of being nourished by this what by what he has invested in this con.
So it's con is special. Maybe so many deficiencies, but still uh if somebody is here taking part in this con, he has a direct access to Prabhupāda's inconceivable. Totally, completely inconceivable mercy.
And that's something very special despite of all the problems which are there. So thank you. I guess it's late. So thank you very much. We may see each other next time on Monday if it all happened.
I, I mean, I probably said that it can only this movement with this one like that. Can only continue by this. Okay, let me think about it. Okay, thank you. Śrīla Prabhupāda ki! Thank you very much.