Reflecting on Srila Prabhupada's Mission
Бхакти Вигьяна Госвами · 2021
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Study of founding ISKCON documents
So, Rishi Mananda Prabhu, thank you very much for inviting me to this illustrious assembly, as I said. And uh Kesw Maharaj asked me to present a little work which I
have done by studying certain documents of Srila Prabhupada and it resulted in a book which is called Deliberation on Prabhupada's Mission.
Specifically, it's two documents where Srila Prabhupada elaborates on his mission and his vision. And as an introduction to this, I can try to make a little connection
between the first part of the discussion which I was a witness of when Brahmatirta Prabhu was presenting his ungrateful service as a mediator between the two parties who don't want to be mediated.
So to make this little connection, uh what I should say is that the situation which we have in the society at the
moment is that uh we def we definitely have diversity, but uh there is uh less and less unity. At least we can see this dynamic. The unity is uh disappearing more or less from the society because of the natural reasons.
I'm not planning to say this or I'm not intending to say this in a bad way. It's a natural process of disintegrating human society and due to again natural reasons because everyone has uh different agendas.
We are from different parts of the world, somebody is from Brazil, with Rascelillo on the background, somebody is from Africa, somebody is from LA as your good self, and somebody is from India, there are so many different backgrounds.
And we also can see that people who join, I could very clearly see that there is a different dynamic if we analyze who joins.
Those people who joined in the 70s, when Prabhupāda started his movement, were different than the people who joined in the 80s and 90s.
And in different countries, according to the different history of the country also the dynamics, the social dynamic is different. Like recently I spoke with one Indian leader and he told me very interesting thing.
He said that before in India many uneducated people joined ISKCON who were seeking for some improvement of their material condition.
And now it's a completely different, you know, completely different group of people who are mostly joining ISKCON, and some of them have very strong nationalistic agenda, Hindutva so to speak, agenda.
And it all influences our society. Our society is very diversified due to its history, due to its you know, yeah, basically history of development in different countries. So you know in this condition,
in this situation, to try to find a unifying, a very strong unifying principles is very important
and naturally we have to look for these unifying principles in Śrīla Prabhupāda's writings, in Śrīla Prabhupāda's own words.
Otherwise, you know the different agendas which every one of us has, you know, we all have slightly different agenda, of course, we all ultimately want to come to Krishna, but still, nevertheless, we have slightly different agendas,
slightly different emphasis, slightly different interests, uh, material interests in the society. Uh it will inevitably torn apart our society. And it's already doing this.
We see this completely, you know, this argument about Vaiṣṇava Diksha Guru I think it's just top of the iceberg. It's just the tip of the iceberg. Showing how actually divided our society is internally.
And it's a really difficult situation and we have to look and to see what we can do to bring more unity within this society. Diversity will be there. There is no doubt about it. It will be there. It's taken for granted.
Diversity will always be there. Artificial unity by imposing artificial unity we also will not achieve anything.
So we will have to seek for unity from the internal unifying principles which are formulated by Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Evolution of seven ISKCON purposes
And therefore, basically, what I'm going to present to you, I was told that I have 45 minutes. Very briefly, I will present my little research which I did on these two documents.
These two documents, one is called Constitution of Association. This document is found in the folio. If you type Constitution of Association, you will find it.
And this is the document which Śrīla Prabhupāda entered into his diary just a registration of ISKCON. ISKCON was registered on the 11th of July, if I'm not wrong, or 11th of June of 67.
And just a few days before 7th of the same month, I don't remember whether it is June or July. But it doesn't matter.
So just few days before registration, Srila Prabhupada he puts into his diary this elaborate document consisting of nineteen points where he describes the vision of his society, mission and vision of his society.
And we know the abridged version of this document. The abridged version of this document is famous seven purposes of ISKCON, which were officially registered.
That is official document which was registered a few days later. But as far as I could see, I tried to investigate the history of this document.
I asked Mukunda Maharaja who was the witness of the whole thing. And by the way, he's the signer under this document. I asked Satswarupa Maharaja, but nobody remembers exactly what happened.
But most probably, of course, we're guessing, but most probably this was the original intention of Śrīla Prabhupāda. He wanted to register our society with this elaborate description
of the mission of the society, but probably due to some legal reasons or legal advice. Ultimately ISKCON was registered with the abridged version of the same thing: seven purposes of ISKCON.
But you know, of course, seven purposes of ISKCON is the fundamental document and we try to follow it. But this document I'm talking about uh sheds the light and uh gives uh more clear understanding of what is
the what is behind the seven purposes of ISKCON.
Comparison with League of Devotees prospectus
And I compared this document which Prabhupada entered into his diary with another document the which he before in the 50s formulated while he was working on the League of Devotees.
There was he published at that time booklet about the constitution of the League of Devotees and basically it's identical documents with uh interesting slight variations uh
and again comparing these two documents and comparing them with the seven purposes of ISKCON, we can much more clearly understand what Śrīla Prabhupāda had in mind while founding ISKCON.
And in my humble opinion, you know, if we propagate this and try to deliberate on this, especially in this year, which is the year of 125th anniversary of Śrīla Prabhupāda's birth and so many other events are significant.
If we try to deliberate more in more details on these documents, we may find a solution to this unhealthy diversity. There is healthy diversity and unhealthy diversity.
And my not very optimistic analysis of the present situation in ISKCON is that the unhealthy diversity is really rampant now.
And it's a little undercovered, but it will surface and it is already surfacing in different ways.
And if we don't find very strong unifying principles in the words of Srila Prabhupada and the mission of his con. And if we are not really imbibed this mission within ourselves, it will be difficult to maintain the unity of ISCON.
And ISCON will be, you know, will have the same fate as many other religious organizations when there will be one split after another split after another split because of natural unhealthy diversity, so to speak.
Anyway, that's the introduction. So I will not be able to give justice to this document.
It's um uh it's um very detailed document as I said nineteen points in this document and uh practically the same from this booklet of League of Devotees.
I did write, as I said, a small book or booklet on this topic, and this booklet, I wrote it in Russian. This booklet is translated into English.
So if anyone is interested, I uh can uh I will gladly share with you this translated document and you can have a look. But I will give a little presentation how I did it. I just I will explain what I did.
So let me uh can I have uh the right to demonstrate the screen? You should be able to do it automatically. I don't think I have to give you a problem. Okay, yes. Yes, it's there. You're right.
Thank you, Chandrashikar Maharaj. So where is it? Yes, it's here. I don't I don't know about anyone else, but this is really peaked my my interest. It's really something uh so happy that Maraz has taken this up as a study.
Yeah, it's a very I I mean it's really interesting document. Especially it's interesting because it's written uh in um in an unusual style, in Prabhupada style.
Uh sometimes it's a little difficult to understand what Prabhupada means the language is sometimes problematic but at the same time it's very revealing if you get into it it's it really sheds a lot of light on what Prabhupada intended for our society.
And I personally think humbly that you know, again, studying this document or having the culture to study this document and try to really imbibe this document will help a lot to us.
Structure of the founding mission document
So I will just show to you. I first give the preliminary analysis of this structure and of the structure of this document. And this document actually is divided into three big parts.
Each consists of seven sub-points or six subpoints. The first six points is about the external mission of ISKCON. What ISKCON is supposed to do for the world, for the society at large, for society in general.
Next six points: it's actually three points, but the third point has four sub-points. So it's again the same six points. Is about the internal mission of ISKCON.
What we're supposed to do for our members, for those devotees who already joined this con, who dedicated their life. And it gives a very interesting description.
And the rest of the document, again consisting of six or seven points, is about practical methodology, how to achieve these purposes. So this is the three big parts of this document and
especially first and the second part are very interesting and needs to be need to be analyzed in a very thorough manner. So and I will show you what I did in this in this document, in this little work which I did.
I give the formulation of from the constitution of association. Let's take the first point of constitution of association and then underneath, you will see the same point from the League of Devotee document.
To educate the greater human society in the techniques of spiritual life as the basis for a balanced psychic and biological development, and thereby achieve for the first time in human society, a real peace and unity among the contending forces in the world today.
And this as you see, this is a little more elaborate version of the first purpose of ISKCON.
And the same point from the booklet of the League of Devotees: to propagate spiritual knowledge systematically for checking the imbalance of life to the whole race of India and the and the world over, with a view to educate the people in general in the techniques of spiritual life as the basis for balanced psychic and biological developments of the human race and thereby achieve real unity and peace of the contending elements of the present world.
So as you see the language is quite special, there is a special flavor in Śrīla Prabhupāda's formulation of this document.
But you know it's it's very interesting to meditate on these points because it really reveals what Prabhupāda means. So what I did, I put point by point these two documents, compare them, and then uh using
other very important documents from Śrīla Prabhupāda, like his letter to Dr. Patel, his essay Gitanagari, and some other, of course, all other books and writings of Prabhupāda, but specifically his documents where he was speaking about his mission.
I'm trying to decipher this to explain what really Prabhupāda means. Because it's not really clear. What he means. For example, what does he mean by saying basis for a balanced psychic and biological development?
What are these techniques of spiritual life as the basis for balanced psychic and biological development.
And so just to give you a little example of how I analyze it, you please let me know when I should finish. I believe I have 15 more minutes. Yes, Mr. Siṁhānanda Prabhu. Oh, no more.
So So uh what does it mean? What do these techniques of spiritual life mean? You know, and uh I analyze it by uh trying to find out the same expressions in Prabhupāda's writings.
And basically, my conclusion by studying this
is that these techniques of spiritual life, which bring this balanced psychic and biological development, and which can bring together the contending forces in the world today is this paradigm that we as humans are the Trinity of the soul, mind, and the body.
And Prabhupāda says this: techniques of spiritual life, and he uses psychic and biological development.
And basically, what he means to say that this paradigm, Vedic paradigm, the very fundamental Vedic paradigm, that there is soul, there is mind, and there is physical body, if we understand this paradigm properly, if we understand that the soul is the prime element of this trinity, that the soul is the most important element, then the balanced psychic and biological development will take place.
And that's basically basically using our iskon jargon
or ISKCON language, the first point of Prabhupada means to preach this you know slogan, ISKCON slogan famous, you're not this body, but your spirit soul and how this understanding actually harmonizes the individual life and the life in the society.
All the imbalances which we are witnessing in the society is due to this forgetfulness of this simple paradigm. This paradigm is unfortunately forgotten in the society and therefore we see all kinds of imbalances.
People are fighting for the resources, physical resources and you know environment is suffering because of this.
And then also the mind of people is affected by this. This you know, competition, competitive spirit again, because people primarily identify with the body. So, and that's the technique.
This is the techniques of spiritual life, and Prabhupada in one of his quotes which I give here says that Bhagavad-gītā, the whole Bhagavad-gītā is the book of the techniques of spiritual life.
So basically by techniques of spiritual life, Prabhupada means the basic paradigm of Bhagavad Gita, to preach Bhagavad Gita in a practical way.
What are the practical conclusions of Bhagavad Gita and how to apply the philosophy of Bhagavad Gita in our day-to-day life? So, and then again, very interesting point here:
if we analyze the language of Prabhupada, we can see in these two, in these first points, in two formulations of the of this first point, we can see the world systematic, we can see the world knowledge, we can see the world value and we can see techniques.
So anyone who is familiar with the education will recognize that we always say that what is education?
Education is the systematic process to give people knowledge or theory, to teach people the skills or techniques, the practical application of this, and to change people's value.
So basically by saying this, Prabhupada is stressing one very important point that ISKCON as an educational institution.
We have to systematically educate people how to change their values, how to you know acquire new skills to live within this paradigm, and of course, to have the foundational knowledge to live properly within this paradigm, this Vedic paradigm.
So that's a little uh very short uh explanation of this first point, and uh by giving different uh quotations of Śrīla Prabhupāda, I try to I think I was quite sincere.
I didn't uh want to impose any agenda on Prabhupāda, I was really trying to find out what he means. And therefore I think it's it's quite interesting. At least for me, I I had a lot of fun working on this.
And at the end, I'm summarizing the whole lessons because there is a lot of quotes, to make it more clear, I give point-by-point summary of this point.
Spiritual knowledge communicated in the Vedas is universal and scientific, especially knowledge of eternal relationship between living beings and God as servant and master, sambandha-jñāna.
And basically Prabhupāda always, especially in this first points of this document, he stresses this scientific nature of Krishna consciousness or Krishna conscious theory.
And his idea is definitely to bring the unity in the world. So, how to do this, how to preach Krishna consciousness in a non-sectarian way?
If we want to know this, we should really study these documents. It's really interesting. Especially the second and the third points of this document.
I will briefly explain the second and the third points of this document as well.
So, anyway, I just, you know, there is uh I I am giving this summary of this uh uh or essence of what of my conclusions, how I uh see or analyse or understand what Prabhupāda really means.
Non-sectarian presentation of the personal Godhead
The second point is even more interesting. The second point is really especially if we read the The formulation in the prospect of League of Devotees, it's really interesting.
And it's very unusual to propagate the sense of Godhood, sense with the capital S, so basically the concept or the understanding, the sense of Godhead as all attractive personality of primal and internal and eternal form as he himself revealed in his own words in the Bhagavad-gītā, the holy scripture of the Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Godhead. That's in this constitution of association.
The same point in the League of Devotees, as you see, it's much more elaborate and very interesting.
To imbibe and develop in the mind of the individual soul the all-attractive personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, in his primeval and eternal form, as he has revealed himself in his own words of the Bhagavad-gītā.
He has to be known all over the world in a manner as revealed by Lord Chaitanya, who practically demonstrated the transcendental process of approaching the absolute Godhead by his acts of congregational chanting of the holy name of the Godhead, there is nothing in the teachings of Lord Chaitanya which is not intelligible by human reasoning, or is against any religious feelings accepted by the civilized society of the world.
Basically, what Prabhupada says here is really interesting. He says that this concept of God as a person can be presented to the people in general in such a way that it will not offend their religious feelings.
It will not hurt their religious feelings.
It can be presented in a very scientific and universal way that it will be acceptable by any reasonable person and it actually can unify all the religions within this framework, philosophical framework, which Sri Krishna himself gives in Bhagavad-gītā.
It's really interesting because usually, when we hear about this attempt to unify religion to help people to get rid of their religious prejudice and so on and so forth, we always ultimately speak about some syncretic religion which is ultimately impersonalism.
Impersonalism, they propagate that if you propagate or preach about the personal concept of God, there will be clash, there will be religious disunity, there will be religious wars.
Only the impersonal concept will unify people. But Prabhupada here very boldly and very clearly says: no, there is a personal concept.
If you understand this personal concept of God properly, and how all other concepts being subconcepts or subsets of this personal idea, how all these concepts are included within the personal concept of all attractive personality, which Sri Krishna presented in Bhagavad-gītā, if you understand this, it will be acceptable by any person.
It doesn't matter which religion he follows.
Any person can basically accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead as all attractive personality because this is the most complete concept, and whatever concept of God you have, you may have, is included there.
And we can clearly show how your understanding of God is already there, included within this understanding or greater understanding of God as an all-attractive person. That's what Śrīla Prabhupāda says here.
And I'm analyzing this and showing how Bhagavad-gītā actually gives all different Bhagavad-gītā is basically a review of different spiritual conceptions of God.
And it's not just a review, it's how to say this? hierarchically hierarchically organized review showing that there is a lower concept and there is little higher concept and then little higher concept and little higher concept.
And I'm showing you know, the successions of these higher and higher concepts which culminate in Krishna as all-attractive personality.
So, this is the different concepts which are there which are presented in Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā agrees with this.
We can, if we know Bhagavad-gītā, we can basically deal with any people who profess or confess any religious ideas and say, yeah, this is there in Bhagavad-gītā, yes, we agree with this. But there is higher concept, a little higher concept, a little higher concept.
So I'm showing here in the explanation of this point six different concepts which are presented in different parts of Bhagavad- gītā in hierarchical way, and how ultimately they cultivate culminate in this idea of the personality of Godhead full of sweetness.
And if we understand this, that will be a great basis of our interface dialogue. And the actually the foundation for the spiritual and religious unity of the world.
If we understand the Śrīla Prabhupāda's idea which he expressed in these points of his program and of course, in Bhagavad-gītā and his other teachings. So that's a brief explanation of the second point of the program.
Building unity through a spirit of service
And I just again very briefly present to you the third point of the program. Uh let me drink a little bit uh and then I will try to explain the internal structure, how the whole document is structured.
So the third point of the document: to bring together individuals in a society regardless, it's also in the seven purposes of ISKCON slightly differently formulated. Regardless of nationality and irrespective of creed or caste,
in order to develop a nearness to the Godhead and thereby the idea that within the members and humanity at large there is an infinitesimal soul spirit that is a part and parcel in quality with the Godhead and that all life is meant for the satisfaction to offset Godhead the Supreme Soul.
And in the League of Devotees it sounds as follows to bring together members of the society individually to one another and nearer to Godhead, who is the prime entity, and the individual soul are infinitesimal entities, and humanity at large, that individual soul being a part and parcel in quality of Godhead, the absolute whole, they, the individual souls, are meant for the satisfaction of the Supreme Soul Godhead as it is revealed in the Scriptures.
So basically, very briefly, the structure of the first six points is like this. First point is the program for our preaching. The most broadest, the broadest vision for preaching.
What we should preach, how we should preach, how we should preach this Vedic paradigm. That's the broadest point. Actually, the whole document is structured like a funnel.
The broader point is the first one, the next is a little more narrow, and it goes like this when it comes to the society of devotees.
So our message to the whole world is this Vedic paradigm which is about Trinity of the soul being the prime entity within mind and the body and how the mind is different from the soul, and how the body is different from the mind and the soul, and so on and so forth.
The next one is more specific, it's about the concept of God. So these two constitute sambandha-jñāna.
The understanding of the nature of the living entity or human being more specifically, but of course, all living entities, and the nature of God. The third point is the relationship.
How by understanding this, what we should do, what is our relationship with God, and how by acting within this framework or with this conceptual framework, within this understanding what is living entity and what is God, how we can achieve unity.
But this point is not for the society in general. This is the point for the society of devotees. Śrīla Prabhupāda is very clear that everyone can understand and be benefited from the first point.
You're not this body, your spirit, soul, try to live in a more in the way which is more congruent or harmonious with this understanding, and there will be peace in the society in general, and many problems will be solved.
Then not everyone will understand God as a person, and not everyone will agree to serve him.
It's very clear that Prabhupāda doesn't mean this point for the whole society. It's more specifically for the society of devotees.
And then the fourth point he's explaining how to do this, how to serve by chanting the holy name, that's the fourth point of the program. And then he goes on and he explains the fifth point and the sixth point.
And then from the seventh point he is much more specific and he is explaining what we are supposed to do as devotees for the devotees.
What is our mission for those people who joined EastCon who dedicated their life to serving Śrīla Prabhupāda's mission and uh you know what what we should do.
And there are there is also very interesting points, but I don't think I will be able to present everything.
I'm just uh you know, igniting little interest to this primarily these two documents, and perhaps if anyone is interested, to this little research which I did.
So I guess that's it unless unless you want me to speak a little more on any of these points.
Aligning personal agendas with founding vision
But I don't think it's necessary. Maura, you you began by talking about the uh unity and diversity and the fact that it's already tearing apart and has been tearing apart is gone.
And then you uh moved into the um discussion of this document which from what you had what what what your from your preamble uh I was expecting would be a deeper understanding of how we could actually um create unit the unity in the diversity. -> unite the unity in the diversity. We don't have as you said, we don't have to uh consider how to increase diversity, that's automatic.
So perhaps you can address the more immediate problems for us that are uh that you were able to mine from this uh document how what would what would we need to do or what would have to change in order for us to reverse that uh that pattern.
Oh yeah. Uh well I did say uh what I uh m at least one point I did say.
Uh in my humble opinion uh as I said, the diversity, the unhealthy diversity which we have is because consciously or subconsciously different people have different agendas. And how to change this?
Uh uh uh uh we should try to get prav's -> Uh uh uh uh we should try to get Prabhupāda's agenda.
We should try to really establish the Prabhupada's agenda -> We should try to really establish Śrīla Prabhupāda's agenda within our mind and within our heart.
If this understanding of Prabhupada's agenda will be there, then -> If this understanding of Śrīla Prabhupāda's agenda will be there, then it will be easier to speak the same language with other people.
Now, what I can see, you know, this unfortunate dynamic which Brahma Tirta Prabhu explained and you emphasized, you know, people they just speak the same thing again and again and again. And they don't hear each other. Why?
Because they just have the agenda. There is no common agenda, there is no common language, they don't understand each other.
So at least one solution could be let's try to think what is our real mission, not the mission which we superimpose upon Śrīla Prabhupāda or upon the society. But of course, that's one answer to your question.
There is another answer to your question. If we more deeply study the ideas of this document, it will give some other answer to this question.
Specifically, this third point, which I very briefly discussed, I didn't discuss it in more details. In the third point, Śrīla Prabhupāda says that the key for unity is the service mood.
When we have this enjoyment, enjoying mood consciously or subconsciously, and basically enjoyment, how it may manifest? It may manifest as, you know, in a subtle way, I know better. I'm the better knower of the Shastras.
You know, everyone should listen to me and so on so forth.
So, Śrīla Prabhupāda was very proud that he created the unity among different nations and everyone, and the secret of this unity is that everyone is steeped or established in this service mood.
But when there is no emphasis in the service mood, then the natural tendency for the mood of enjoyment is manifested and we know that variety is the mother of enjoyment.
So diversity is a natural by-product, unhealthy diversity is the natural by-product of this tendency to enjoy within ISKCON, so to speak. So it's it's interesting again if we analyze how Śrīla Prabhupāda saw it.
And uh and that's I'm not speaking, you know we unfortunately, we have been talking about these things too often, and sometimes these words don't register within us. But actually, this is a very practical program.
How we can really reinforce this service mood within our society.
You know you probably witness of it and I I definitely within my limited experience, within this con, see how this tendency more or less to enjoy within ISKCON is manifesting more and more, even in different programs which we have.
Like you know, too many festivals which we have, oftentimes the spirit of these festivals is quite an entertainment. There is no depths of this service moods.
I'm not criticizing anything, but there are some subtle tendencies which are creeping in.
And when people are talking with each other and cannot really hear what other people say it's basically a manifestation of this enjoyment mood. I know better who you are to say.
You're Mlechcha, you're from America, and I'm from this background, or vice versa. You are just uneducated or this and that.
So that's Śrīla Prabhupāda's answer to this question to really hammer again and again and again on this mood of service and humility and you know this unhealthy diversity is result of the opposite tendencies, which unfortunately become quite prominent within the society as the time goes on.
Thank you. We have a number of questions, so we're going to take them in the order that they came up. Judah Kram first, then Saragaswali, then Sahadev Prabhu, and then Parabhati Prabhu.
Governance aspects in early foundation papers
So Yudukarma, you're up over. Thank you. Uh I read through your paper and the League of Devotees document and the other documents that were provided.
And one thing I I noticed is that in these, like in the League of Devotees Prospectus and other things, Śrīla Prabhupāda doesn't mention governance at all.
In other words, how the League of, at least in the document that I read, he didn't say anything about how the lead is going to be governed, who's gonna make decisions and things of that sort.
Do you have any any comment on that?
Uh uh I s uh no, I didn't think about it, but uh my understanding is that uh Śrīla Prabhupāda here specifically speaks about the vision and mission and for the governance of the society there was different document.
He was writing different documents, separate documents, not to mix these two. This is more or less the visionary ideas. What is the vision and mission of the society? How to execute this?
That's uh and and Prabhupada had different ideas uh over the years, so I I'm not I really didn't study this uh at depth, but uh this is just a general vision. That's my understanding. And one more point if I if I may.
In the League of Devotees document he he he makes the statements that uh ninety five percent of the world's population is being exploited by you know the five percent of polished demons who are, in other words the, the leaders of society.
And then he goes on to say that the League of Devotees can benefit both of them, both the 5% and the 95%.
So I thought that was an interesting way of him making identifying his League of Devotees as the in one sense a revolutionary group, you know, to cause a spiritual revolution in society on behalf of the ninety five percent, but also the five percent.
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's very interesting.
And I I again I as I said I think the whole society will be benefited if we meditate and study this and and uh put these documents as a unifying principles of our society or the vision of all the members of our society.
Because Prabhupāda, this whole uh the both documents is about the unity for the whole world, and we cannot really establish the unity within our small society. So it basically means that something is wrong.
That we're not really following Prabhupāda's program and that has to be seriously analyzed. Why? Thank you.
Practical methods for non-sectarian spiritual outreach
Thank you, Drutakarma. Thank you.
It was very wonderful presentation and uh it's really good that Drutakarma Prabhu highlighted the non-political um spirit of Prabhupāda's uh presentation because he didn't want to divide and rule he wanted to benefit everybody regardless and I just wanted
to check it seems that the first point is automatically connected to the other points and my perception is that once we start doing something practical to benefit people, providing spiritual solutions to material problems, then naturally some of the people will be appreciating us and wanted to know more about Krishna consciousness and then all other points as you explained through the funnel system uh will come into being.
Uh so if that understanding is correct um please uh comment on that uh then uh the question is how do we what what shall we do to benefit people universally without discriminating between uh their religious affiliations or cultural affiliations, etc. So how do we perform that spiritual charity in non-religious fashion, so to say?
See, as far as I can understand, Prabhupāda very much stressed non-sectarian nature of Krishna consciousness.
Even as I explained the second point, he's explaining this very personal and very how to say, in one may think of very sectarian concept of God, that it is actually non-sectarian. What to speak about the first point?
The first point is you know it's not about religion, it's about uh our life and uh how to live properly in this world and uh if we really understand this this point ourselves, we will be able to present it in such a way that people will not be threatened by our presentation.
Actually, I remember very much when we just started preaching in Russia and we started mass distribution of Bhagavad-gītā, there was one letter which came after this campaign of distributing Bhagavad Gita which touched me very much.
The lady wrote, you know, thank you very much for distributing these books. I read your Bhagavad Gita, and for the first time I really started to understand what is there in my Bible. So and she specifically said my Bible.
She was not going to change her religious affiliation but uh by getting this non-sectarian scientific rational framework, philosophical framework, she could understand.
And you know there are so many such people who really start understand what religion is what their religion is all about by understanding what you know this rational science, spiritual science, you know, presented in Śrīla Prabhupāda's books.
So really open-minded people will not be threatened and we can very boldly present it presented in in such a way that nobody you know will be offended by this.
So I I I don't see any problem with presenting this and you know not upsetting the religious religious sentiments of other people. Okay. Sahadev, are you done? Sahartan? Uh I just wanted thank you Maharaj.
Uh I just wanted uh maybe you could give some examples.
How could we present our spiritual knowledge and practices in universal spiritual but not religious fashion as it they say nowadays well you know the this this simple paradigm uh you know Brahma Tirt Prabhu is here, Drutta Karma Prabhu is also here.
The pioneers of Bhaktivedanta Institute. And this is the foundation of the mission avhaktivedanta Institute: That there is body, physical body, there is mind which is subtle matter.
Most of the people, even those people who say that mind is not that that there is some non-material principle they somehow or other don't understand, don't distinguish between this non-material principle and the mind.
So even in this very fundamental and very basic point we have advantage that there is that the mind is a subtle matter and there is a soul which is ruling and which is the guiding principle in this Trinity of body, mind, and soul.
So there is nothing you know th this uh can be presented in a very very very non-sectarian way uh easily no problem. So uh and uh and the the practical conclusions of it uh are very profound.
Uh you know if if we think you know the problem is that if we think we are the body, the body always lacks something.
And if we have this physical conception, there will be always this rampant competition between different people. But if we are soul and you know then we don't need to compete with others.
And you know you know better how there are so many preachers who presented it in a very nice way. You know, the practical conclusions.
It basically, you know, if we are soul, then other people are also soul, and therefore we're not supposed to uh kill other living entities and uh you know that's the first point of this.
Uh and uh of course vegetarianism is coming from this, but not just vegetarianism for the sake of vegetarianism but uh vegetarianism for the sake of the soul uh was the understanding that uh we're de doing the charity for the soul anyway, it's it's a big topic.
The whole um elaborate program of how to preach this uh can be uh uh designed just by meditating On this idea of Śrīla Prabhupāda. And actually many preaching programs. One of this is of course Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Sahade Purdue. Thank you Maharaj. Just to thank you and contact you. This is very exciting and inspiring. This is something very important and something very practical. I have heard in long time.
There is hope Maharaj, as long as leaders like you are discussing and mindful of Śrīla Prabhupāda's Jannah, and seven billion people are there with 7 billion agendas and even a night is here to express itself.
So Maharaj have brought out something very important and universe of Bhakti is huge, but we belong to this segment called Prabhu Pada Rudas. So as you pointed out, the differences have started surfacing already.
So Rara jis, I wanted to comment that in our quest for Krishna consciousness, we cannot afford to lose our Prabhupada consciousness.
We may not have even begun to understand the greatness of Prabhupada. Just I wanted to tell one point that, regarding Śrīla Prabhupāda, treatises, the biography of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who was he actually?
So Prabhupada consciousness is even broader and includes Krishna consciousness. I mean even Krishna claims being conscious of his devotee is greater than being conscious of him.
So Maharaj, we have no common ground other than Shrila Prabhupada. So you are from Russia, we are from India and so many differences.
But Prabhupada is the connecting the trend which connects all the currents of your movement.
Institutional growth and need for systematic education
So thank you Maharaj from the bottom of my heart. Hare Krishna. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Parvati. Hare Krishna, thank you Maharaj for your wonderful explanation.
Um, I have two considerations about that. Uh, you say that, uh, now we are facing with, uh, a lot of different, uh, compared to the beginning of our movement.
But of course, at the beginning of our movement, uh, most of the devotees, they were coming from the same background. It was quite, uh, quite normal that, you know, for young people, me too also, we, we leave everything, uh, just observing the movement, uh, no deep education, or they, or at least very few were doing that, uh, nowadays the situation is completely changed, no? And of course, when you enlarge the number of people, different uh, perception of, uh, interest in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, entering in the, in the, in the spiritual part of, uh, the Vaiṣṇavism and Krishna consciousness and so on. And of course there are different interests.
So the point is that if you look at other religions, they faced hundreds of years ago with this problem. Because in the beginning everyone tried to assimilate to the same concept.
And they were spending hundreds of years in fighting around that. And also we, we got, uh, I am committed, I know well the story of the Christianity and so on.
We, they did a big scheme into that and also a lot of core because, uh, slowly they go into the need of, uh, try to integrate the different, the different aspects of the same religion.
And, uh, what they, they, they found that it's not, not possible to, uh, have unity in anything, but they have to, to, uh, to accept that the core is to accept something which is very relevant, like for them is to accept, uh, Jesus is, uh, is the, is the one, is the, is the original prophet, uh, and to, to accept the, the leadership uh of the Vatican. That's it for them.
Otherwise you can find a different current inside the bed. You have the Benedictine, you have the Francisca, but you have to remember the Francisca they has been hundreds of years disconnected by the Vatican.
Just recently the last decades they become recognized and unmuted again in the radical.
So my my point is that uh we cannot uh more we become bigger, more we become difficult to have the same mood, the same way of thinking. You have to look much more into the integration. And we have to find a way.
I don't say that we have to copy what other media they do, but at least we have to look into that.
And as far as I understand, also Srila Prabhupada, before just to look into the others just to find that the best way to draw up the movement without pushing to uh to to have the the same mood or the same idea.
Of course the mood of service have to be there. This is some some basic principle. But the other monies is different. Just my opinion. Yeah. Thank you very much Parabhakti Prabhu.
And I will also maybe answering this I will also touch uh the question of Drutakarma Prabhu which he asked regarding the how to you know how to govern or how to basically you know guide this whole huge society when it becomes so big and so diversified and so unruly, with many different entities and many different people from different backgrounds, as you said
uh there is a way uh still uh uh it's not going to work if we try to impose some vertical structure. It's not going to work if we try to you making a very strict administrative power. It's just it's scenario for failure.
It's not going to work, uh dictatorship or whatever and uh you know our society is such that we don't really have all this mechanisms how to govern by this material means.
But there is a way to unify the society, nevertheless, and to make it harmonious, and there is only one key word for this: that is education.
If people are educated in the same way with the same values, and if all the leaders are engaged in this education, then education will bring unity. And that's the only way to bring unity and to govern such a big society. And our society, even though it's relatively small, still it's big enough to be governed by a group of people without finances or without other material means to rule.
So in my humble opinion, there's only one way: education. But unfortunately we don't have unified education. There should be some some, at least, you know, basic basic structure for the education of all the members.
Everyone who joins this con has to know: this is the one thing which I have to learn first and assimilate first, then the next step, the next step.
So this whole system should be designed in my humble opinion. And that's the way to bring unity.
If people will be, you know, we all know that when people they were sitting behind the same desk in a school or in a university.
You know, even thirty years after they have a lot in common because they got the same values, the same ideas and same years they spent together.
So education on all levels and we should start from the education of the leaders.
If leaders are educated in a similar way with similar ideas, with, as Sahadev Prabhu said, in the ideas of Prabhupāda, with a very clear understanding of what Prabhupāda wants, not just quoting Prabhupāda, you know, as is fashionable now.
You know, I have my set of quotes and somebody else has some other set of quotes and we are fighting and we don't really hear each other.
Internal spiritual qualifications for spiritual leaders
So being educated in Prabhupāda's teaching in a very sincere way is the way to rule the society, to govern the society, and the way to establish unity within the society.
Before I go out with Kalakānta and Mahatma Sureshwara and Nayanamritī, just I think I could, um, maybe, uh, spice up the presentation with a question to you about how you would reconcile your views on the Vaiṣṇava dīkṣā-guru issue? If I remember correctly, you are, um, a traditionalist, that should, uh, not be, uh—it should be women shouldn't be gurus, if I remember correctly. And how would you take that viewpoint and apply it
to the whole concept of creating unity, given the fact that this is, you know, an existing issue within ISKCON now?
First of all, I'm not—I'm neither traditionalist nor this how you say, this progressist, or how you say the opposite to the liberal. I am not liberal. I am not traditionalist.
I think, you know, my view on this issue is very simple. I think when we talk about some external qualification for being a guru, we will never be able to reconcile the differences.
But if we talk about the qualification, real qualification of being a guru, regardless of what is your gender, what is your generation, what is your age.
You know, if we establish a very clear set of the qualification for being a guru and whoever possesses this qualification and
definitely the sex will not be part of this qualification because it's a spiritual qualification and sex is a material qualification. Bhakti can harmonize everything because bhakti is not judging according to externals.
You know this dispute which we have, this argument which we have within the society, is argument between those people who say that very traditional and
traditional people they tend to attach very great value to the external things, and those
people who are liberal who try to you know nullify the difference and you know egg these egalitarian ideas that everyone is equal and this and that but they're both external.
And bhakti is neither about this nor about that. Bhakti is about the internal qualification. And if we try, and it's more difficult, it's very simple, easy to judge according to external qualification.
Yes, somebody is woman, is woman, so she shouldn't be guru, or, you know, somebody is woman, therefore she should be guru. She has the right to be guru. Both are wrong, you know.
If we try to establish the internal set of qualification and judge according to the internal set of qualifications, then there's no argument because internally
there is no difference between, there is no difference, you know, on an external level, but you know still there is internal qualification.
So instead of arguing who could or who could not be according to the external qualifications, I would just establish the completely different set of qualifications to be a guru.
Through the education and through spiritual qualification. I'll turn it over to Kalakanti, who I'm sure will pursue this with greater vigor. Thank you, Maharaj. The presentation and the concept was wonderful.
Synthesizing traditional and liberal viewpoints
And I really appreciate you bringing these things out and sharing them with the society in such a succinct way.
I was curious in the course of your studies, if you've come across anything relevant to the actual demographics of ISKCON that have transpired over the last 50 plus years.
Initially, the membership was almost entirely young Western people from Europe, America, Australia.
And progressively it incorporated large numbers of people from Eastern Europe, Russia, and subsequently uh India, and then the Indian diaspora all over the world.
So at this point, the the uh Indian diaspora in the West is by far the prominent congregational constituency. So we have these issues not only of gender as you were discussing but the nationality.
And in his vision for this worldwide society, did Prabhupāda touch upon the conflicts which seem to have arisen based on uh nationality, on political views, like Brahma Kishor mentioned, like the Hindutva kind of nationalist view that that has seemed to be incorporated in some places.
The ideas also of having religious liberty or gender equity that differ from country to country, society to society.
Did Prabhupada anticipate this, envision this, address this in any of your in any of the research that you have done?
Well, definitely Prabhupāda addressed this sort of stuff uh maybe not so directly uh as you know as we would require uh at this day and age, but in general,
I would say that you know, Prabhupāda, we all know that traditionalists they blame Prabhupāda that he's too liberal. And of course, liberals they also said the same about Prabhupāda that he's too traditional.
You know, I'm quoting Allen Ginsberg who was saying about Prabhupāda that Śrīla Prabhupāda. I love him, but he's so outdated and so so utterly traditional that he will not have any success.
So, Prabhupāda, he was definitely a mixture of both, not mixture, synthesis of both.
And in my humble opinion, this synthetic power, the power to synthesize these two tendencies, is the power of bhakti. Because love is very traditional and at the same time very liberal.
So, what I should say is that you know my analysis, my philosophical analysis of these two tendencies.
Those who are traditional they have leaning towards this karma tendency, karma kanda tendency, with very strict hierarchical structure, this and that, and you know traditional values, all these elements.
This is all karmakanda, strict purity, all this, you know, and basically very strict hierarchy. And those who are into this liberal uh thing their leaning is clearly uh towards the jñāna side. Everyone is equal.
This is jñāna basically. We're all the same. You know, this egalitarian idea, it's covered or not so covered in personalism. So we have jñāna and we have karma. The jñāna is the thesis and the sorry,
karma is the thesis, jñāna is the anti-this thesis, and bhakti is the synthesis. Bhakti takes this understanding that there is a hierarchy, and Prabhupāda was very much stressing this point.
He was saying that you know we're not equal, you know, women are not equal than men, and you know we are not equal. He he's stressing that there is a hierarchy.
So he was taking this, but at the same time he says that from the spiritual point of view we're all equal. From the material point of view, we will never be equal.
From the spiritual point of view, we will never be different. We by nature are equal. So and how to reconcile this?
And you know, these two tendencies, karma and jñāna, they are fighting you know from eternity, from the time immemorial, and they don't, you know, and the only reconciliation is bhakti. Because bhakti respects hierarchy.
We very much respect hierarchy. We very much respect traditional values, we very much respect the beauty of the tradition.
But at the same time, we very much stress that the spiritual equality is greater and it can overshadow these differences. And if you develop spiritually it doesn't matter from which background you are. You can totally transgress your limitations from the material background by spiritual development alone.
So this is, you know, and if we are bhaktas, if if bhakti rules supreme, then it will be very easy to reconcile these contradictions.
But if we give way to our material tendencies or you know our upbringing you know then we will be you know Trump's followers or Biden's followers within ISKCON you know will be some you know and and there will be no unity. Excellent, thank you very much.
And now it's your turn. You're you're muted. Was I next or was Mahatma next? Oh, uh I'm sorry, you're right. Mahatma is next. Okay. Thank you. What a gentleman.
Overcoming sectarianism within Vaisnava communities
Thank you. Bhakti-vidgetPackage. I love the print presentation, but I have doubts. I just wanted to share the doubts. Two doubts that came up. I mean I have more, but just two it triggered two things.
When you were talking about the Christian lady and how much she liked Bhagavad-gītā, and I was thinking, you know, in ISKCON we want results.
So in this broad picture, you know, we say, well we haven't made any devotees in the last twenty years, but we've influenced society. Well how can we determine that? How will the ISKCON leaders accept that?
You know, because we're always looking for some more concrete results. That's that's point number one. Point number two, ISKCON has the history of being very anti-anything other than 10% dedication to ISKCON and the GBC.
So if you go to if the devotees went to Śrīdhara Mahārāja and the Purī Mahārāja and Narāyaṇa Mahārāja it's and now we're talking about unifying religion. And you understand psychology.
There are people who can only see black and white.
So in consideration of all of this, have you like ever become depressed and just think my document's not gonna work because we have these realities and how do you deal with that? So point number one.
Uh I think uh I I I don't see a problem with the point number one because if we preach in the broadest possible way, in a non-sectarian way,
there will always be people who will want to become more and more interested and go deeper and deeper and deeper.
And in fact, that will be a very good people because this people you know will have a very intellectual approach. Those people who Intellectual people they don't like narrow-minded presentation.
So we should not be afraid of giving broad-minded presentation. Yes, some people will be just satisfied with this broad-mindedness and say I'm fine with what I have, thank you very much, what you gave to me, I'm happy.
But there will be people for sure and uh it will be good people, uh really uh first class people. Maybe not first class people, but really good people, intellectual people who will be attracted by this presentation and will definitely see the how to say this, the beauty
of this presentation and the superiority of this presentation. You know, as there is a joke that uh yeah how it's how it goes that uh uh uh uh that every other religion says that this is the best religion.
And we don't say that we are the best religion, therefore we are the best religion. So if you present it in this way, we don't say that we're the best religion. Meaning that we're the best religion.
You know, there will be people who will be attracted to this presentation. So I don't see a problem with your first doubt, but I do see a big problem with your second doubt. I think it's quite relevant.
So this second doubt I don't know what to do with.
But I personally think that uh the overreaction which was definitely there in ISKCON leadership uh In regard to all these preachers was partially due to some insecurity and partially or largely due to the immaturity of the followers who were creating all these things.
You know, these neophytes, they will always create this sort of troubles. So I think when we become more secure internally when we have more you know realisations as the society and when
in general we will educate better the devotees who join so that they will not manifest this unfortunate traits of neophyte devotees, you know, and will not preach in a destructive way, then we may reconcile the differences between these different groups of Gaudiya Vaisnavas and establish more respectful and more uh healthy relationship with them while maintaining our identity as the followers of Srila Prabhupada.
So I think it's possible, but I very much agree with your doubt. It's difficult. That will be much more difficult than to establish the peace all over the world and unity of all the nations.
To establish unity within Gaudiya Vaishnava community will be much more difficult because it's easy to be in peace with other people, but to be in peace with somebody who is almost like you but still somewhat different is much more difficult.
So thank you. And Sarisharpuru, you're the last question up there.
Transformational power of personal education
Uh first of all, uh Dr. Nigan Maraj, just thank you for your uh very wise and good natured presentation I really appreciated your your bhapi. Um I have a question and a follow-up if it's appropriate.
So the question is, when you were speaking, I couldn't help but think of also your presentation to many of us who took the um hermeneutic pilot. And I was thinking how
your study of the Constitution of Association and the League of Devotees perspective may have been informed by your hermeneutic studies. Or um or the other way, how your hermeneutic studies may
have been inspired by Prabhupāda's very deep. And for me, the constitution of association, it shows Prabhupada's humanity and his spirituality. It's really great.
So could you speak a little bit first of all about how those two studies, the hermeneutic and the studies of those documents? I first started studying these documents, uh hermeneutics came later.
But you're right, definitely you know we should educate our members how to reconcile the difference and how to really see the forest behind the trees
okay so to drill down a little bit on education, that was a big theme of yours, the big reconciler or the big hope. Um how does it work uh that we all have our agendas, conscious or unconsciously.
We bring our prārabdha karmas, you know, to the hearing process and they sometimes get in the way. So are you hopeful, or how does it work,
that we bring our agendas to the table, to the family table, where we have all the fights? And uh then and those agendas they get in the way of of getting the of discovering our common interests beneath our agendas.
So how does the hermeneutic process actually expose our agendas to us and bring us to some deeper unity and then start visiting diversity? See, that's the main point of real education when
we understand that education implies transformation, not just you know external education, external understanding of you know changing slightly our worldview.
But if we understand that real education implies or requires the deeper internal transformation, including the agendas. The agendas can be changed through the education if, the education is proper.
I don't say that any education, any theoretical education is has this effect. But at the same time, we all know that even just reading Śrīla Prabhupāda's books is a transformative experience. There is some transformation.
Especially if we do it systematically, if we do it within the society of devotees, if we discuss it deeply, then transformation will take place.
But if we also make sure that there are some other you know, and then of course the teacher is very important.
If the teacher himself, teacher influences you, if the teacher himself has a very profound realization, then his realizations are shared with you in the process of education.
He may be speaking something, but he also is transferring in the meantime his experience and his realizations to you without even speaking about them explicitly. You know, this process is taking place. That's neuroscience.
Neuroscience says that, you know, if if you're learning something from somebody who has a lot of experience, you get in his experience.
No matter whether he speaks about this explicitly or not, still some transformation will take place.
So when I speak about education I mean transformation and of course we have to make sure that the whole process of education is transformative, that it's not theoretical and therefore of course the online education should not be the most important education.
Of course nowadays you cannot really you cannot really have education without online. It's all online.
But still we have to understand that at least some segments of education should be offline because this personal touch from my heart to your heart, from the heart of the teacher to the heart of the student, is very important.
Because that's what transforms the heart of the people and uh changes the agenda. So I think uh our society has a bright future if we have uh you know good teachers who teach not only online but also offline. Yes.
And of course, hermeneutics, the whole process, hermeneutical process is very transformative itself.
If we teach how and if we learn how to deal with each other, how to do this Vada type of discussion rather than Jalpo or Vitanda and so on so forth. That's you know by this process we will influence each other.
You know, by sitting together, speaking together about this, listening together, hearing and going through this process, we will be transformed and agendas will be transformed. Thank you for giving us hope, Maharaj.
So if I may uh extrapolate from your prediction, Maharaj, then uh next week's meeting of the Vyaishnath Diksha Guru proponents and opponents will end up with a unified and happy conclusion. Is that correct?
Only in person. Yeah, only if it will take place in Govardhana. By the influence of the holy place. As they say hope springs eternal.
Well I'd like to give the concluding uh the our uh a concluding um thanks to Maharaj to one other of our members who hasn't spoken and who is quite outspoken.
So I'm going to hand the thank you over to Atma Vedanaswami, who has remained uh uh characteristically silent during this uh exposition.
Thank you everyone Nashirana Prabhu and Akiryanama Maharaj. I am very much impressed by your presentation and as Sura Swap Prabhu says, we have hope that one day we will go beyond our bodily concept and see more as you present in your words on a bhakti platform rather than just uh externals because whether we like it or we don't like, externals are always going to be there. It is part and parcel of this material nature.
But by Prabhupada's mercy, he has brought down something which is very unique uh and it is not his own, but he's designing Krishna from Bhagavad-gītā as Bhagavad as solely based spirit soul rather than material platform.
So I am uh very much impressed and I uh don't have much to say but I thank you very much from the bottom of my heart that maybe your uh perseverance in producing this document will go wider in our society and I hope the result of that is that some very solid platform of education will arise from that.
Hare Krishna. Thank you Atmanivedan Maharaj. Thank you. On behalf of all of the sub members, we are very grateful for your time.
We'll be looking forward to getting the more of the document which we got translated, but it has a lot of uh anomalies in it so uh if we can get uh I I think that uh Mars is going to get your your better translated copy to us so we can look at that instead.
And I really appreciate your coming on. Would you be willing to uh make another appearance in the future if we request it? Yeah, yeah, I'm your servant. I'm your puppet. Whatever you like.
Well, in that mood then we we will we'll kindly look forward to another session to know when. But thank you again. It's always wonderful seeing you and having your Sangha. Thank you. Thank you, Narsimha Ananda Prabhu.
Thank you.