Bhagavad-gita 7.28
Бхакти Вигьяна Госвами · Sweden · 2006
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Verse recitation and translation
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Chapter twenty-eight.
Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇāṁ te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇāṁ te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇāṁ te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ bhajanti māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Translation.
Persons who have acted who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated, are freed from the dualities of delusion.
And they engage themselves in my service with determination. Those eligible for elevation to the transcendental position are mentioned in this verse.
For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish, and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate.
Only those who have passed their life in practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and who have conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Then gradually can meditate and trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of being situated in the spiritual platform.
This elevation is possible in Krishna consciousness in the association of pure devotees. For in the association of great devotees, one can be delivered from delusion.
It is stated in the Shimad Bhagavatam that if one actually wants to be liberated, he must render service to the devotees. Mahatsevad Vara Mahudvi Mukte.
But one who associates with materialistic people is on the path leading to the darkest region of existence. Tamodvaram Yoshitam Sangi Sangam.
All the devotees of the Lord traverse this earth just to recover the conditioned souls from their delusion.
The impersonalists do not know that forgetting their constitutional position as subordinate to the Supreme Lord is the greatest violation of God's law.
Unless one is reinstated in his own constitutional position, it is not possible to understand the Supreme Personality or to be fully engaged in his transcendental loving service with determination papam jananam Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated, are freed from the from the dualities of delusion, and they engaged themselves in my service with determination.
Divine intelligence behind the universe
Kṛṣṇaṁ patitāṁ bhūtarus maturi bhaktivedānta swami iti nāmine, namaste saraswate devī, gaura-vāṇī- प्रचारिणे, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-paścātya-deśa tāriṇī. Vāñchā-kalpatarubhyas ca kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ, jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda, śrī-advaita gadādhara, śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare / Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. It
has been a long time since I was last time here. I see many new faces This seventh chapter, which is called Knowledge of the Absolute, is dealing with a particular problem, why we don't see the Lord.
This chapter starts from the simple statement that you cannot avoid the Lord. He's everywhere. Everything is more or less resting on him. He says that: Mattḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya. There is no
truth higher than me and the order and law which you see in this world is because of me. This highly regulated place which we are in means that there is an intelligence behind it. And this intelligence is the Lord.
He says that because you see the order, not chaos, it means that there is intelligence. And this intelligence is me. Otherwise the whole world would be scattered. If it was not for the Lord, we would not see so much order.
People in this world so foolish that they try to deny the existence of the Lord. But if we consider even human body, we will see so much complexity. So where this complexity is coming from?
In one tiny little cell of the human body, there is, uh, information, uh, for, ten to the power of fifteen different cells.
In one of these, in our body, there is ten to the power of fifteen, ten with fifteen zeros after this, cells. And this is all functioning harmoniously.
Only in our brain there is fourteen billion cells. And still people don't have enough brain substance to understand that there is God. So basically, Krishna says that you
know, I'm everywhere, and everything is coming from me. Mattḥ parataraṁ nānyat says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ, sarvasya prabhavaḥ, that everything is coming from me. Everything is me.
And he says basically, you can see me very clearly in this world. Sometimes people say, where is your Lord? We can say again very clearly that He's everywhere. He is there.
His name is Viṣṇu, and Viṣṇu means He's basically in every knock and corner of this creation. And we can feel his presence, but there is only one problem.
The rest of the chapter, in the beginning of this chapter, Krishna explains how he is everywhere, but in the rest of the chapter he explains why people cannot see him. What is the reason?
What is the main reason why they are so bewildered? Why there is no chance for them to understand and why they so foolishly and stubbornly deny his existence?
He explains it from different angles of vision, but in particular
Illusory duality of desire and hatred
in these two verses, previous verse, and this verse, he explains the very specific reason why we cannot feel the presence of the Lord. In the previous verse he says, he
says that the reason for this is this duality of icchā-dveṣa-samutthena or illusion which comes to your mind or to your brain because you try to divide this world which is uh which should not be divided.
Basically the very important point which uh we can derive from these verses is that the world is coming from the Lord. And the Lord is only one. There are not many gods, there is only one God.
But because we have wrong mentality, and this wrong mentality,
which is very beautifully described here by Kṛṣṇa as dvandva-moha. The illusion of this duality forces us to divide this one reality, which is coming from one Supreme Lord, which is undividable because it's coming from one source, divided into two.
We have this deeply rooted desire and hate within our heart, and therefore when we interact with this reality, which is one,
we say I like this and I hate this. And in this way we cut or divide this duality, this this reality, which is one into two.
And Kṛṣṇa explains that this is the reason of moha illusion, and this is the reason why we cannot see him.
Now, this in itself is a very interesting point. This is illusion because the reality is one. It's coming from one source. And it's illusion because there is nothing bad and there is nothing good in this world.
But because we are more or less tuned into enjoyment in this world, we have to divide it. We have to say this is good, this is bad. People, they cannot live without this. This duality is the essence of life.
You know, if all of a sudden you will tell somebody whom you meet on the street that this is wrong, you should not say that this is good, this is bad, this is uh man and this is woman. This is honor and this is dishonor. This is victory and this is this is success and this is failure. People will not be able to relate to this concept.
But Krishna says that this is concept exactly is the reason why we cannot understand that he is there.
Because we see of you this world wrongly. And this mistake, this original mistake which we do, as Krishna says, Sarva Buddha Nisamuham Sargi Yanti Parantapa, that all the beings in this world are born with this mistake.
They are trying to take only a part of reality without accepting the reality as the whole. And that's why they develop all kinds of unwanted, undesirable qualities. They uh develop hatred. And hatred means anger.
Anger means violence.
And all kind of uh unwanted qualities are there only because of this original desire to enjoy this world and this original desire to enjoy this world manifest into this dualistic vision of the reality.
Whereas if we accept reality as the whole, because by nature reality is one undivided whole, it's coming from the Lord. And it's all good.
Because it's coming from the Lord. It's made from the Lord and the Lord is all good by definition.
If we accept reality as the whole without trying to divide it into two, then we will be able to see the Lord behind this reality. And this is the only reason why we cannot see him because we cannot accept.
We say basically we say God is bad. When we try to divide the reality in this way, we are saying that God is, you know, He doesn't know what He is doing. He created this world which is not very good.
If I created this world, I would know how to do it. I would do it much better. I would only do what I like and I would not create something which I don't like.
And God is so foolish that He created this world and half of this world or actually much more than half of this world. I just don't like it. So basically, because of this mentality, we offend the Lord.
We translate or we reflect our hatred upon the Lord, and our relationship with the world becomes also non-harmonious.
Something we like, and if we like we get attached to this part of the world which we like and uh it creates problems. And the other part of this world we don't like we hate and that creates even bigger problems.
And in this way human beings are wasting their life by trying to oscillate between these two dualities, these two poles. This I like, this I don't like. And this is exactly the reason of papa sin.
Krishna says that if you have this sinful nature, and sinful nature means trying to divide this I like and this I don't like. Sin is not that primitive.
Sometimes uh people give very primitive definition of sin. You know they count some sins. But Krishna gives a very deep and very general definition of sin.
He says if you are situated in this world and you are trying to take from this world only what you like which is relative, which is actually not very even deep or philosophical. You just try to take something which you like and try to reject something which you don't like. In this way you create sin.
And you create you more or less reproduce your sinful nature. Because this duality of hatred and love is the result of our sinful nature. You know, I like something, I am attached to something.
And uh to protect my attachment, I will kill everything or I will destroy everything which is on the way of my attachments. And that creates all kinds of uh sinful emotions.
And the sinful emotions is the source of our sufferings in this world.
Four degraded natures from material vision
And Krishna says first of all what you get by opposing yourself in this world you get total complete anxiety you get miseries uh you will not be able to fulfil your foolish understanding that you only get what you like, you will always get something which you don't like, which you hate, and ultimately you lose the chance to understand the Lord.
And by situating like this in this material world, what is being created, you create your sinful nature.
And Prabhupāda explains, and this is explained in this seventh chapter, that there is only four kinds of natures which human beings have. Because of this attitude towards this world,
which people have, you either become foolish, or sinful, or deceitful, or atheistic. It's basically as Prabhupāda explains in the course work what happens as a result of this dualistic vision of the world.
If you are situated in this duality, this I like and this I don't like, either you become a fool, this is a very natural consequence. Fool basically means you become very dull. Like all those people who drink a lot.
You know, I'm I'm coming from Russia, this is very much a familiar example for me. There is a lot of people who drink vodka there. So why do they drink vodka? Because they want to become fools. They like vodka, of course.
They like vodka, they don't like anything else. So they drink it and drink it and drink it to become a fool. This is one of the natural consequences or one of the natures which you develop uh by having this attitude.
If you have this attitude, I like this, I don't like this, one of the results is that you become more dull and dull and dull and dull unless uh you you become so dull
that you don't understand anything what is happening uh around you. You become so completely dull and foolish that uh you know you don't react anymore. Oh another attitude or another nature which can be developed is uh uh
this sinful nature. When you don't sin openly but you try to do it secretly. Basically, these four natures which are described in this seventh chapter is very much relevant to our life.
Some people they take this course of becoming more and more dull. And this is the result of sin, or the result of this ultimate attempt to divide this one whole into two parts.
Each has versus some. Another result is that you become weak. You will become very weak. And you try to have a nice front, but somewhere secretly uh you commit some sinful activities, some abominable activities.
Because of this weak heart. You commit it secretly, you know, you do something oh not so secretly. Nowadays you don't have to be very secretive actually.
It's quite normal if you commit it's more or less abnormal if you don't do it. But anyway, what Krishna is explaining, he says that the second result of this is that
your heart becomes very weak and you are not able not capable of living a pure life. Life which is actually the normal life for the human being. And then the third result is that you become deceitful.
And deceitful means you try to explain that there is no God. You try to prove to yourself that you live in a right way because there is no God. And I can do whatever I like.
Like all those people who are trying to prove that there is no God and uh all those people the scientists who say, you know, that this is all created by chance. You're created by chance and you're created by chance and I am created by chance.
It means basically we can do whatever we like. And so many philosophers are there. But this deceit is coming from within the heart. And this is again the result of the same illusion.
And ultimately you become openly atheistic and you say, even if God is there, I don't care. I will do whatever I like. Because again, uh what you want to prove you want to prove your right to live how you like.
I like this, this is good. I hate this, then I have to have a right to reject it or to kill this or to destroy this, what I don't like. And to prove this you have to deny existence of God.
So this is basically what is happening. We have this uh initial mistake and when we make this initial mistake which is coming from our birth, we are born in this duality, we are born into
this illusion, and because we are born into this illusion, we are suffering. We continue our ignorance in this world, ignorant existence in this world. And that's basically the result of this problem, original
problem, original sin which is there within our heart.
True meaning of inner spiritual change
The desire to divide. And sometimes people they take religion as some kind of attempt to change the nature on a very superficial level. Ultimately, religion or Krishna consciousness is the call
to change the very basic nature which we have. To change the heart. Krishna is saying here that you have to change this attitude. You have to accept this look world. You have to say yes to this world.
Actually, this famous Vedic mantra, praṇavaṁ kāra, om. And people chant Om. This is perhaps the most famous statement of Hinduism. The meaning of this om is very simple. It means yes.
Basically, all these yogis which sit there in Himalayas and they chant om, om, om what they say, they say yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And the meaning is very deep. They say yes to God. Because usually we say no to him.
We say you don't exist, get out of here, get lost, we don't want to see you. You created this hellish world, and I have to suffer in this world and ultimately I will have to die.
But spiritual life means to say yes to the Lord. I say yes and it means also that I say yes to this world. Whatever Krishna sends to me, I will say yes to it. Something good is coming, I will say yes.
Of course, that's not so difficult. Something bad is coming. I don't say no. I again say yes. I say thank you. You're sending it to me and it ultimately means good because God is good.
So this is the mentality which people have to develop by practicing spiritual life and which basically means a very radical or uh very serious change within the heart. It's not so easy to reject this attitude.
I like this, I don't like this. It's very difficult to say, from now on I like everything. Theoretically we might say this. Sometimes people say, yes, yes, I'm self-realized, so it's very nice, everything is very nice.
But this is only before the first test comes, the real test. Somebody comes to you and hits you, and then we will see what your reaction will be. Something really bad happens to you.
And everything is nice, you you can pretend that it is like this.
But what Krishna is saying here is that you will not be able to understand me unless you make this change within your heart, and this change is not so easy.
Sometimes people they take spiritual life as something very cheap. They say that spiritual life you know you basically should make some little trick and this trick uh will relieve you from the sins.
Usually that's what people think the religion or spiritual life is all about. You go to the priest and you confess and all your sins are somehow or other mystically taken by Jesus Christ.
And you know, he's anyway suffering, so let him suffer more. Or something like this. But it's not like this religion or spiritual life is a call for very deep change within our heart.
Buddha story illustrating karma
There was a nice story in this regard from the life of Lord Buddha. He was preaching in India uh two and a half thousand years back.
And once while he was preaching, he was traveling all over India and he came to one village. And usually when the saintly person comes, uh people come with all their problems.
They want to dump their problems on a saintly person because this is their profession, to take all the problems of normal people. So one young boy came to him and he was crying.
He came to Lord Buddha and he said, Please help me. I have such a deep deep grief within my heart. And Lord Buddha, being compassionate, he asked him, What do you want? He said, My father died.
And my father was not a very pious man, he was a sinful man. And I know that something bad will happen with him now. So please, please, do something to relieve him from the sins.
And the Lord Buddha started explaining, so what can I do? The sins are already there. He has committed it. What can I do?
He said, no, no, no, but there are so many priests and Brahmanas and they all say, you know, we'll do this ritual and we chant these mantras and we do this trick and that trick and everything will be so you you you must know this science. Please do it.
And Buddha was trying to explain that the science means if you committed sin, you committed sin. And the sin will be there with you. And you cannot do anything about it. But he couldn't understand this.
He couldn't understand the simple fact that basically you have given a chance, we are given a chance to change our heart in this human body. And we have to use this chance in a very proper manner.
So uh he understood, Lord Buddha understood that this boy cannot really understand anything. So he said, Okay, I'll do what you asked me to do. You go to the market and you buy some clay pot, two clay pots.
Something something really good will happen because you know this is something you know the that's what people think religion is all about.
You buy some clay pot, you put something there, you do chant some mantras, put it there, bus. Done. So he bought two clay pots.
And Lord Buddha said, you put in one clay pot little stones. And in another clay pot you put ghee, clarified butter. Boy became ecstatic because he said no this something really mysterious is happening.
So he put this and this. So he said now you close these pots. He closed both of the pots. And then he said, uh you take these pots and put it under the water in the pond. So he did it.
It became very interesting, you know, what what kind of ritual it is. Very complicated procedure. Now the miracle will happen. So then and then Lord Buddha said, now you take a stick and you break this two pots.
So he did it. And that gave him a great hope. Because in India there is this ritual when the father dies, the son is supposed to burn his body.
And when he burns his body, when the body is half-burned, he's supposed to break his skull.
And it is said in the books that when the son breaks the skull of his father, then at that moment the doors of the spiritual world open for the soul of his father.
And it enters the soul of his father enters directly into the heaven or spiritual world or whatever is there.
So he said he thought now I will break these pots and in this moment the soul of my father will go to the heaven. So he broke. And naturally ghee, clarified butter, went up. And all the stones went down.
So now uh Lord Buddha said, now you call all these priests and Brahmanas and tell them to chant some mantras so that the butter will go down and the stones will come up.
The boy said, you must be crazy, what you're talking about. You know what kind of mantras they should chant, you know, this is test stones. Stones means they go down. And oil, butter means it goes up.
This is the physical nature, this is the law of nature.
I said, no, no, you try it, you try it, you try to do it. The butter should go down, otherwise it will not work. So now somehow or other you should make the stones float and butter go down. He said, No, it's not possible.
He said the same is with the soul. When the soul commits sinful activities, it becomes heavy and goes down. It's a natural law. When you commit sinful activity, you feel within your heart that some heavy weight is there.
And naturally, when you become heavy, when your soul becomes heavy, when your consciousness becomes heavy, it goes down.
If you do something nice, if you do something good, uh you feel light. You feel that you are elevated. Even in this life. You don't have to wait till you die.
Even in this life you can see the effect of sinful activities and the effect of some pious activities. Pious activities you become much more bright in your consciousness, you become light, you become happy.
Even in this life. So Lord Buddha said, this is the effect of this, and no mantras uh, which brāhmaṇas chant, uh, are capable to change this fact because this is a physical law.
If you commit sinful activities, your soul, your consciousness becomes heavy, becomes dirty, and it goes down. If you don't commit sinful activities, your consciousness goes up automatically because this is the law of nature.
And Kṛṣṇa exactly explains the same thing here. He says that basically what you should do, you should change through the way of spiritual practices your nature your habit to commit sinful activities.
The spiritual life is there for us to give us the chance to purify ourselves now. And we have to take this chance. You know, this human life is very rare. It's given to us for this particular purpose, not for anything else.
It's given for us to purify the consciousness from all these heavy loads
yasṁs tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, Kṛṣṇa says those people who uh committed pious activities who uh uh uh who were living piously in previous lives and in this life.
And naturally, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ, naturally this, inclination to serve me awakens in their heart. Because this is what pious people means. This is what it means to be pious.
To be pious means to serve the Lord, to serve the Lord with unswearing determination.
You know, when m our soul or our heart or our consciousness is freed from this habit of sinful activity, then naturally we will serve the Lord because this is our uh natural proclivity inclination.
We have to serve somebody and ultimately we have to serve the Lord. And when the heart is pure then uh this desire to serve the Lord will come.
Transforming the heart through saintly association
But uh we all know that it's difficult to change our nature. We all know that the sinful habits are there. Uh that so many different problems are there which we have.
And Prabhupāda basically in this purport to this verse, he explains how this change of the heart can take place. The only chance for us to change our heart which is very difficult.
The only chance for us to get rid of this Dvanva Moha or Desire to divide this world and to say this I like, this I don't like. This is good and this is bad. The only chance for this is to meet with the saintly person.
Saintly person by his attitude of accepting this world and God, by saying yes to God, he can teach us how to live happily in this world without this duality of hatred and love.
And if it was not for pure devotees or saintly persons, we would never be able to realize this ideal within our life. This ideal is not easy. And ultimately, this is the goal of our spiritual practice.
Unless we achieve this state, which is in every culture of this world, is called saintly hood. We will not be able to understand the Lord. We will not be able to come closer to the Lord.
We will not be able even to worship Him with determination. We know we're trying to do something, we're trying to do some spiritual activities, but we know how difficult it is.
We're trying to do we're making one step and one step. But then immediately we are trying to run back to our lives.
Krishna says this is natural because you will not be able to do this unless you finish with all your sinful habits, unless you change your nature.
And how you change your nature, there is only one, there is only one uh possibility for us to do it, is to meet with the saintly person who will show us this way and who will, so explain to us that this is not that difficult.
Usually people think that this is very difficult. But it's not difficult. Actually, it's not very difficult. Because in reality the soul has nothing to do with all these sinful habits.
The soul has nothing to do with lust, with greed, with anger. The soul is free from this. The soul by nature uh is not a slave of these things.
And you only the only thing which you have to do is to feel yourself as the soul.
And this feeling of being the soul you can only get when you meet with the person who will accept you, who will not relate to you as we usually relate to the people of this world.
Usually when we interact with the people of this world, we again experience the same mentality of love and hate.
But the saintly person, because of his universal love, he can make you or give you this sense of feeling this feeling that I am the spirit soul.
And in this way, free you from this mentality of iccha and dveṣa, desire and hate. Like Prabhupāda. He is this savior of this world because He came.
And His power was in this ability to give people this sense that their spirit souls accepted by the Lord. What happened with us? Because we rejected the Lord.
Because of this mentality of trying to divide this world into two, we rejected the Lord. And therefore, we ourselves feel rejected.
We feel that we're not loved, that nobody needs me, and ultimately, you know, I don't know if the God is there and if He needs me or not.
But the saintly person, as Prabhupada explains in the purport of this verse, they traverse this earth only for this one purpose to give people this feeling that the Lord loves them.
And when this feeling comes to us, we immediately can feel that I'm spirit soul, which has nothing to do with this material world of hatred and love.
When we feel this universal love which is coming from the heart of the saintly person, then only we can get rid of these sinful mentalities of duality of hatred and love. There is a nice story.
Prabhupada once was invited by his disciples to some community where uh nude people are living, nudist nudist ranch California, yeah, nudist community. He, Śrīla Prabhupāda, his disciples, they knew that he loves to preach. So they decided to give him some fun, some engagement to invite him for the Nudist community.
Prabhupada was bold enough. I I was thinking that you know if somebody would invite me I would probably not go home. Because you see all this you know naked people in front of you. Prabhupāda went.
Again, because of this compassionate love which was there. And one disciple of his who formerly after that became his disciple. He tells the story how he met with Prabhupada. Prabhupada came out from the car.
And he was. he was the only one with the dress. Everyone else was naked.
So a group of people, you know, came and stood around Prabhupada because he looked really, you know peculiar with the dress. It looks something strange, you know.
So one of them he was he was naked and he was doing some kind of agricultural work. They were worshipping sun and they had some ideas.
So and Prabhupada looked at him with very deep compassion in his eyes and he asked this man what are you doing? And this man said I'm I'm uh I'm doing some agriculture with potatoes or something like this.
And Prabhupada said, No, I don't mean this. I mean what are you doing with your life? What are you doing with your life?
And he said, when I heard this, just one phrase, my whole heart was changed. Everything was changed from this moment on. He said, I went to my room, I found some dress, I put on dress, and my life changed after that.
He became a devotee.
This is how it works when we encounter this uh this attitude uh which we have in our heart of love and hate when we encounter it uh in other people, then we are more or less programmed to live in this material world.
But when when we meet with the real devotee who realizes the Lord, who is beyond this duality of hatred and love, then we can get the feeling that I am spirit soul, which has nothing to do with this world of love and hate.
And in this way we can get rid of this sinful mentality, which otherwise is very difficult to get rid of. It's very difficult to be free from this sinful mentality. But it's at the same time it's very easy.
But the only condition for this is, as Prabhupada explains, mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ: We have to try to serve somebody who is saintly, and by serving or meeting somebody who is saintly,
Uh by listening to him or by serving him one way or another, we will be able to get rid of this illusion within our heart.
And when the illusion dissipates then the spiritual life becomes natural because this is our nature to serve the Lord.
And Krishna says, bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ, those people who achieve this state, they worship me with great determination. So this is the meaning of spiritual life. To change our nature and to worship the Lord.
But for that, the preliminary condition for that means to meet with a saintly person.
And Prabhupada said that he created the society only for this purpose so that people can have some association with saintly persons and hopefully you're getting this association here.
And I guess I should finish my little lecture now. Thank you very much.
Addressing arguments about the ultimate cause
For a long time I didn't speak in English so I always speak in some other languages, so please forgive me. Um you spoke about atheists?
Um um I I had disc aussion with someone and um it was a problem with that argument that yeah everything has a cause and that's why there must be God somehow.
Yeah but doesn't he say that this is the reason why the same argument uh is uh circular because um then there must be a cause for God also.
He doesn't understand simple thing that uh God by definition is the cause of all causes. Because and actually it's interesting.
In the Vedic scriptures it is said that between this world and spiritual world there is the ocean which is called causal ocean.
And this causal ocean is called causal ocean because we are living in the world of cause and effect.
In this world where we're living, everything has cause and everything which we see is effect and there is cause and cause of this cause and cause of this cause. But in the Vedic scriptures it is said that the creation is
divided into two parts and one part is on this side of the causal ocean where there is the law of cause and effect, and there is another part of the creation where there is no cause.
Where everything which is there in that part of creation is causeless. God is causeless. All the spirit souls which are there also causeless. Everything which is there causeless.
So when he says that there should be some other cause of this cause of this cause, it only reflects this faulty mentality. Mentality of this world.
And this world we are programmed to say that there is cause and cause of this cause and cause of this cause.
But even from the philosophical point of view, you have to admit that if you go to this chain of cause and effect, ultimately you will have to come to something which doesn't have any cause, which has to be causeless.
This causeless cause of all causes is called God. That's the definition of God. God by definition doesn't have any cause. And you know what else can we say?
If he is little philosophical, he will have to admit that this is like this because ultimately what they say uh they say that this material nature has no cause they will have to admit that something is causeless it has always been there.
So what they say, instead they deny the existence of God. In other words, they say that this original cause of all causes doesn't have any intelligence, but it's just nature. It has always been like this.
The stars were like this, you know.
Because uh even when they explained this big bank or whatever, still you know there is there was one cause and there was one vacuum before this, and how this vacuum came into being, this is also very mysterious.
But what we say, uh, everyone has to admit there is cause of all causes.
The only difference is that uh those foolish persons who say that cause of cause of all causes is material nature, they say that the cause of all causes is totally completely brainless.
And we say that cause of whole causes is not brainless, but those who deny the brain of the cause of whole causes is brainless. The cause of whole causes is very brainy.
It has intelligence. Because otherwise how this order would come into being, how this creation would come into being. But you know, they're not better than us in one sense because they say the same thing.
They only say that this cause of all causes is just chance. Yes. Yes. Not only understand, you can see God. The only reason why we don't see God is this, because our mentality does not accept Him.
And the Lord says, how you relate to Me, I reciprocate with you. And if we don't see, if we don't want to see the Lord, He will not show us Him to us.
Forgiveness as a path to freedom
We will not be able to see Him. What is your opinion about forgiveness? Uh what is my opinion about forgiveness? Forgiveness is very good. Forgiveness is actually very much related to this topic.
When I was speaking about this icchā and dveṣa, desire and hate, we hate somebody, or we become offended by somebody only because of this faulty mentality, illusory mentality.
So ultimately, if we want to transcend this mentality and to know God in a very difficult program which is there within our heart. I like this, I don't like something else. This is good, this is bad.
All our, you know, and forgiveness exactly means this. It's the same.
And when you reach this state of total forgiveness, when you forgive everyone, and basically means that you don't you're not attached to anything and you are not you don't hate anything. Then you f you forgive.
Moreover, from this moment on, you don't have to forgive anyone because you will not be offended. Nobody will be able to offend you. No matter how hard he tries.
He will not be able to create this feeling of offense or or bitterness within your heart. Yeah. To divide. Illusion is to divide one reality which is coming from one Supreme Lord into two.
So why are you talking about material world? Why I'm talking about material world? Because this is the game uh of play uh in which everyone is engaged here in the material world.
Everyone th this this is is the the juice of life. How can you divide the power of him as material? No, he is not material and he is one. And how you can divide, I don't know, but somehow or other everyone is trying to do this. Everyone in this world is trying to do this.
Nobody accepts reality in Right? If you like everything, then you don't have a problem, but I have my doubts. So that's what we are trying to do and that's foolish. The reality is one, we cannot divide it into two.
But we're still trying. No matter how hopeless it is. But it's, um, when you talk about the material world, it seems to be very negative.
So I'm not talking about the material world in a negative thing, but uh uh that's that's what we're doing here. Uh I don't say that it's necessarily uh I mean it's bad,
it's definitely bad, but it doesn't mean that I'm negative. consciousness. If your consciousness is material, you are in the material world.
If your consciousness is spiritual, right now you will be in total complete bliss. But that's usually what people here do, and therefore so much so much pain is there.
People get attached to something, and that creates pain. Because sooner or later they will have uh to get rid of these false attachments. Or people hate something and that also creates a lot of pain.
And we are living in this world of pain. Whether it's good or bad, you should decide. But you can change this by changing your consciousness or your attitude towards the this world. And ultimately towards God. Yes.
Almost all feelings which we have, which we have, it's a perverted reflection from Krishna's feelings. So there's one somehow or other visuality thing has to be in him also or He
also likes Hladini-sakti and the he has he has the right to do it because it's his work, and if we accept his point of view, we will not commit any mistake.
Our mistake is that I say I like this, therefore it's good, I hate this, therefore it's bad. And that's a mistake. Who are you to say this? You're nobody. And I'm nobody.
If we say this is good because Krishna says it's good, and this is bad because Krishna says it's bad, then it's okay. Then you don't commit this mistake.
Krishna says I like saintly persons, and you say yes, Krishna says I like saintly persons, therefore I also like saintly persons, therefore I will try to serve them and associate with them. That's good.
Our problem is that we have the faulty understanding, totally wrong, understanding of this reality, and still we try to insist that only my understanding is correct and everyone else is wrong.
And that's wrong, and therefore we are we have a problem basically. But if we accept the point of view of God, that means Krishna consciousness. Krishna consciousness means I don't judge myself.
My judgment is uh uh according to the judgment of Krishna. That's okay, that's fine. Krishna also says there are demons and there are devotees. Krishna. Krishna doesn't say everyone is good, yeah, nice, very good.
No, he says there are demons, there is demonic nature and there's divine nature.
Scientific limitations in understanding God
But if we accept the criteria of Krishna, uh uh no matter you know whether I like it or not, then it's okay. Then it's not a problem. So there is a room for this, but it's true.
scientists throughout the world they just uh they just disagree that there is no God. There is uh they just are more into into the results of their researches.
So yeah I mean uh is it not possible to think like this whether the scientists they just are trying to explain the mechanical process of uh of uh the mechanical process of the creation of this world. Yes by Krishna. Yes.
So they are just trying to explain what Krishna has told in in a different way. Yes. And as Albert Einstein has told that imagination is much more important than knowledge.
So if you just don't try to imagine there is Krishna and how can you know his knowledge? What would you like to say about this? I didn't understand your point. Scientists are trying to explain the creation of God.
Yes, uh people think that uh scientists are are more into their research, the results of their research. Yes. Yes.
They don't uh they don't say that they always say that there is no God. There is there is only science in this world. Whatever is happening is due to science. Yes. Yes. There is no God.
Yes. It's uh it's not uh you don't have to believe God, you have to believe science. Yes.
So what I uh try to say that maybe the scientists in the world throughout the world they are just trying to explain another they just have another vision to explain the mechanical process.
A part of the Kṛṣṇa's mechanical process of creation creating this world. That's fine, they can do this. Um, but they shouldn't make claims which are beyond their jurisdiction. The science is fine.
There is no problem with the science as such, if the science admits its limitations.
Science has specific area of jurisdiction and if it only goes like this that you know we can understand this much and beyond this we can't understand. There would nothing be wrong with this.
The mistake which they do, they know this much, and they say we know everything and they thought there's no God.
Like very foolish argument which I heard, the most foolish argument, which was very famous some time ago in Russia in the Soviet Union when the first spaceman uh was the there in space they asked you know Gagarin went to space and he didn't see God so it means there's no God.
So that's exactly what what scientists do, you know. In our research, we don't see the room for God. We don't see the need for God. It means He's not there. But you know, what kind of science it is?
It's not it's not even logical. It's, mh, what to speak about being scientific. This is a completely wrong statement.
You know, uh if I say, you know, for me to take this this this glass, there is, you know, I don't need God for this. It means He doesn't exist, right? No, it doesn't mean He doesn't exist. So uh what you say is okay.
Uh but of what uh what they do wrong is that uh uh they try to make a very general statement uh in the area w they don't know anything. You know they say you know we uh we know this much, it means we know everything.
And uh ultimately uh what they want to use, they want to use the little knowledge which they have to deny the existence of God. Which is again wrong.
And they say we know this, this, this, this. It means and and so far we don't need to explain this, we don't need God for this, it means he doesn't exist. No, it doesn't mean he doesn't exist.
It only means you don't know him. It only means you don't see him.
But at the same time, uh there is plenty of experience of different people in this world who did see God, who did interact with God, who did speak with God, who had personal experience of being with God, of seeing God.
And you know, this is also science. Krishna also explains science, but it's a different science.
So what's wrong with them only this that they're going beyond the real jurisdiction and trying to do something or to say something which uh which they have no right to say I have heard uh also read
in my books that scientists have told that where uh science ends, philosophy begins. Um no, not really Not really. You know, there are different scientists. There are good scientists. You you mentioned Einstein.
Einstein believed in God. He said, yes, this is science. I I can yeah, but at the same time he says there is God.
He doesn't see any problem, but there are some other foolish ones who say, you know, I know this much and therefore God is not there. This is what Śrīla Prabhupāda called deceitful nature.
They have this deceit is in the heart.
Realizing absolute truth through Krishna's teachings
Okay. I have a question. Last question. I can feel that I was heart. When I am in the spirit of God I can understand that people who don't know or feel that they are in God's heart.
But when I am in the spiritual world, at least or somewhat I can feel that you know I have a hope that I can uh it's a problem that that it's like uh in the spiritual world they have the truth and and in my in my word if they are there are no truth it's so it's so individual.
So what what do you think because we are in these forms and uh I am in this form and oh you are in your form. What do you say about that?
In this form it's come something special and in your form it's come something special because it's not true. And therefore we can't not say the fruit because it's always come from me.
Because I think you know what I'm mean. What do you say about that? The truth is there. My mouth or your mouth, but it's definitely coming from Krishna's mouth.
And the truth which is coming from Krishna's mouth is in this book. So because we are in these forms, we may sometimes say something which is not exactly according to the highest mark of the truths.
But if we follow the words which are coming from Krishna's mouths, which is absolute truth, then our relative being also becomes absolute.
Now we are relative and because we are relative we cannot claim to be hundred percent truthful or whatever we say cannot be also hundred percent correct perhaps or the understanding will be faulty.
But we should try to follow what Krishna says and then and then there will be some change in our heart. Okay, thank you very much. I think it's always late. Silakrabadiki. Si si gorni tight