The Phenomenon of Krishna Consciousness in Russia
Бхакти Вигьяна Госвами · 2021
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Introduction to Bhaktivigyan Goswami Maharaj
Hare Krishna, everyone, you are listening to the late morning program with Namras, the number one Hare Krishna podcast in the world.
I am very honored here to have His Holiness Bhaktivijan Goswami Maharaj, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. I'm very happy.
So, for those of you who don't know, Bhaktivigyan Goswami is a sannyāsī, a leader, a guru uh from the Rushanatra. He has been in the Yash Russian Yatra serving uh for many, many years and from virtually from the very beginning.
And we want to hear a little bit about the phenomena of the Russian Yatra, the phenomena of Hare Krishna in Russia, it has been growing exponentially in the past 20 or so, maybe even longer years.
And we want to know a little bit more about that because I know my viewers, we've heard a lot about the Russian Yacha. We see Russian devotees are virtually everywhere, all over the world. Even here in America, in New York City, there's a whole group of Russian devotees in India, also.
Uh, so we want to know a little bit more about that. And Maharaj is the best person to tell us about that because he's been there from virtually the very beginning.
So Maharaj, let's start off per personally, how very briefly, how did you come in contact with Krishna consciousness uh well in 77 srila prahpad sent uh his holiness gopal krishna maraj to Russia.
After being in Russia once in 71, Śrīla Prabhupāda personally directed uh or ordered Gopal Krishna Maharaj to go to Russia and he went there with the book fair.
And he reported actually to Srila Prabhupada about the success of this expedition. There was a big international book fair in Moscow.
And a friend of mine, who was my roommate in the university, Moscow State University, he uh met
the devotees in this book fair got uh a book of Śrīla Prabhupāda and um you know ultimately he got involved in krishna consciousness and he involved me.
He gave me Bhagavad Gita, not Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita, because Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita at that time I think there was maybe two or three copies for the whole of Soviet Union. It was not Russia at that time.
He gave me some old edition, Russian edition of Bhagavad Gita, and Bhagavad Gita uh basically changed my life.
I read it within one evening or maybe two evenings and um I realized that uh there is something wrong with the way I was thinking before. So that was the that was the beginning.
And you had done uh you were very educated in the sense of you have your PhD uh and you were doing a science degree, is that right? Yeah. I was doing my I was uh working I I graduated from chemical department of Moscow State University and I was working in the Institute of Molecular Biology of the Academy
Government persecution during the Soviet era
Academy of Science, Russian Academy of Science, studying the you know molecular structure of chromosomes, how the DNA with the proteins interact, and how the DNA is so compacted within the chromosomes, because DNA is a huge molecule which is compacted uh into the cell and how still despite of this uh very uh compact structure it's available and the information is being uh read by the Proteins, so on so forth. So that was my educational background. Right, right.
So I understand that the Russian Yatra, even when I was a kid, like I grew up in the 90s.
I remember uh Harikesh Swamy uh and his group, they were very much like they were all over Europe as well, a book distribute heavy book distribution, uh, and in Russia, Soviet Union.
Tell us a little bit about your what part did you play in in those times kind of in the in the nineties?
Um, I started chanting Hare Krishna mantra in 1980. And you know, I practically from the beginning I started chanting my 16 rounds or more.
And at that time it was a heavy period of persecution. Russian devotees were really persecuted by the state. I believe it was in 1983 or 84.
Uh the uh KGB chief or deputy KGB chief published an article and he listed uh the three major threats to uh Russian to Soviet Union to communist ideology of Soviet Union and uh Hare Krishna was among these three major threats.
The first one was rock music, another one I believe was I don't know, consumerism or something like this, and the third one was Hare Krishna.
So uh you know the communist regime at that time was very alarmed by the spread of Hare Krishna movement in Russia.
Even though it was totally underground, there was just a handful of devotees, but nevertheless, they were very enthusiastic.
They were printing Prabhupada's books illegally, distributing Prabhupada's books. And they were so alarmed that they created the separate department in the KGB just to deal with Hare Krishna movement.
And I got involved by that time with Hare Krishna movement and uh ultimately I got involved unvoluntarily uh with the secret police of Russia which is called KGB. Uh and uh yeah.
Uh so uh that's why I had to leave Russia, leave the Soviet Union in uh nineteen eighty seven, I believe, and I went to Sweden, Kirti Raj Prabhu, who was uh at that time the GBC uh person, GBC secretary for Russia and the whole Eastern Bloc, he arranged my you know some by some trick he arranged uh me uh out of Russia.
Book translation work in Sweden
Wow he sent some lady devotee and there was some paper marriage between one Swedish girl and and myself. And how how long did you stay in Sweden for? I was staying in Sweden in 1994 and my main
service at that time I was in mostly in Korsn's Gard in uh New Radakund.
Um, and my main service was to translate Śrīla Prabhupāda's books into Russian or edit some Russian rough Russian translation which was done in Russia, so and also help some other languages of the former Soviet Union or Soviet Union to arrange their translation into their languages.
So I was there and I was heading this uh uh Russian uh department uh uh in uh uh North European BBT. And as you said, at that time Harikesa Swami was very, very prominent figure under his guidance.
Millions of books were distributed, and uh especially his specialty was that he was arranging the translation of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books into different languages.
At that time they were probably not less than 20 different uh languages, uh, devotees of
different languages where they are in Korsnäs Gård translating Śrīla Prabhupāda's books into Polish, into Czech, uh into Serbian into Croatian into Uzbek and to Kazakh, you know.
All this was it it was a very uh amazing time. And I remember Harikesa Swami every time during Māyāpur meetings he would bring this high stack of books and would offer it to Prabhupada.
You know, there were basically dozens and dozens of Śrīla Prabhupāda's titles were translated into different languages.
I want to, I want to talk about that for a minute. What was it about Harikesa Swami that made him such a powerful unifying agent at that time uh unifying power uh what w was it about him
that did that? I mean, it's amazing what he accomplished in that time so i just want to know a little bit about about him and and what was it uh about him that made him like that?
He is a very powerful person, and he uh he was capable of uh inspiring many, many other powerful persons. Uh he is a brilliant manager, he has very brilliant managerial abilities.
Right. Actually, the story is that I recently spoke with him. Oh really? And yeah, he reminded me about uh the story uh
he was pro-пад secretary and uh uh he was his service was to cook for Prabhupāda, serve Prabhupāda, and record Prabhupāda's uh lectures.
So uh he was giving a class in Vṛndāvana at that time during Prabhupāda, and Prabhupāda was present during this class. And there were some Indian rich Indian uh people, some businessmen who came, and uh this uh uh People
approached Prabhupāda after his class. They were very impressed by his class. He is a brilliant speaker.
So they came to Prabhupada and they said he speaks very nicely why don't you uh let him manage and uh said i don't know what is the relationship between speaking and managing but in this case definitely divorce.
So Prabhupāda made him uh GBC uh member and uh BBT trustee at the same time. Appointed him as the BBT trustee and definitely B B T work was
very dear to his heart because he has been recording Prabhupāda's spoken words and transcribing Prabhupāda's uh dictation uh of his translations uh for years by that time. So he was personally very inspired.
He's a revolutionary by nature and um uh he is uh he graduated from uh you know new yellow i don't exactly know which one but um uh in sociology department, and he was a revolutionary.
And he saw in Krishna consciousness the real revolution or real sociological, so to speak, you know, the real solution to the problems of the society.
So he was very much inspired by Prabhupāda's books and by disseminating Prabhupāda's message into this in in his zone so to speak.
So he was inspiring many many uh very powerful leaders to uh powerful devotees to distribute books, Harinamananda at that time and Naveenan Nirada, who is still distributing uh so many books.
But uh his specialty was that he was inspiring the translation of the books into the local languages.
And for that, the whole department of North European G B T was uh created in this uh Kors N, which is still very active and very powerful branch of the BBT. But at that time it was uh it was amazing.
The atmosphere there was very amazing, you know, because every now and then you know there was a uh custom in um uh north european bbt that when the particular language would come to uh Caitanya-caritāmṛta to translate Caitanya-caritāmṛta there was marathon.
As much as Prabhupada Marathon to produce Caitanya-caritāmṛta within two months.
So that was a more or less the tradition and course guard to produce the whole Caitanya-caritāmṛta within three, four months or something like this. So every now and then you you would you would hear now the Polish
language is doing Caitanya-caritāmṛta Marathon and it means that you know there will be some madness going on. Amazing.
Wow, yeah, it's it's really interesting to hear about him because what we do mostly hear about is what happened after he left and you know the confusion of the arm.
But we never really hear, you know, what what was it about his personality that that made him so empowered and so powerful when it came to spreading Krishna consciousness.
He was a very inspirational speaker and he his his uh very strong point of his personality was that he could delegate the service in a very proper way. People felt uh empowered.
Management crises and leadership transition
In fact, I can share my own experience. In 1994, I I moved uh uh back to Russia uh with the idea to continue with the BBT work, but also there was a major shift in my service at that time because uh
Hare Krishna movement in Russia was under the major threat from um
some legislation which was uh which was there in the parliament and uh anti cult people were very active so uh my main service for some time was communications and protecting Hare Krishna movement from the external threat, so to speak.
Uh in uh the beginning of the 90s because we became big and uh naturally it created a strong opposition. So he sent me and he actually uh gave me such empowerment.
I I still remember I was doing tremendous things at that time, not because I'm as such uh I'm quite a timid person by nature, uh, but because I felt empowered by him uh and I felt completely totally protected.
I actually never in my life I was uh feeling so protected
because while giving some service, uh he was not only giving the service, he was giving complete total protection because everyone knows, you know, if you're in a leading position, doing something, you need some protection from the top because you will be attacked from all sides, you know, within the society, outside this and that. So I felt totally completely sheltered and protected by him.
That was his specialty. Whoever was working under him felt that he is safe he can do his service and he he felt the the the sense of empowerment was there he was not micromanaging uh he was the real leader and he was a visionary also.
And that contributed to some problems later because he wanted to solve the problems of the whole society uh and uh he was taking too much on his shoulders basically yeah
so i he's it's very unfortunate what happened and it's very unfortunate that people now devotees now don't know much as you said uh about his contribution yeah.
And I think that's eternal because uh what he did nobody was able to do.
Yeah, you know, this moments when he was sitting in front of Prabhupada Smurti in his Prabhupada's room in Lotus Building in Māyāpur were very special offering him the stack of books.
You know, I usually was present during these moments, and I could feel that he's just basically speaking with Prabhupada and reporting to Prabhupada about the most dear service which Prabhupada had, you know, while translating his message into the different language.
So it's it's very unfortunate what happened and uh especially what happened, you know, that what is happening even now that he's uh his contribution is not properly recognized.
There may be some problems, but you know he he was under tremendous stress for years uh and uh he was taking different responsibilities during this most difficult forming years of Hare Krishna movement, Zona Lacharya years and this and that and when when he you know stepped down from his post and when he left,
what was your attitude towards that being his disciple and I know many devotees left because of you know it's it's a faith crushing thing when when the leader you know uh is is you know falls from their position and whatnot but what was your personal attitude towards the whole thing?
How did you process it? It was a very difficult time, perhaps the most difficult time in my life, definitely because he was very dear to me personally as a person. I was his you know I was quite close.
You know, he never really you know his disciples when never really too close to him. He was very careful about this. But I was as close as possible. I was cooking sometimes for him. I was serving him. And I was translating.
Whenever he would go to Russia, I was translating with him.
So whenever he would be there, I and it was personally very difficult for him for me, because uh I never subscribed to his views. Uh I knew that he's just undergoing through a certain test and difficult period which will be gone after some time.
But because of the at that time there was no social media, but still internet was already there, because of this internet, and the situation around him became very um uh politically uh you know that so many people in the society were demanding that he should be more or less punished and crucified.
Whereas my feeling was leave him alone. He is in a very difficult period of time. He has to sort out something inside. He's a you know grey devotee
who contributed a lot to Prabhupāda's movement, please give him some space, some private space where he could really you know sort out something internally.
But this facility was not given to him in one sense I understand why because there was this, you know, demand from the society of devotees, which sometimes is oftentimes as any you know big social uh thing, you know, it's not always rational what is going on in the uh in the societies.
You know, so uh and uh the leaders of the movement the gbc were under this tremendous pressure uh and instead of giving him some you know some space and uh protecting him, there was this very heavy sort of resolution.
Understandable under the social pressure which GBC was, but you know it was not fair in many regards, and that created a trauma to him. And of course, uh, you know, the different disciples of his reacted differently.
Some disciples they were very loyal to him and they immediately changed their attitude towards Krishna consciousness, left Krishna consciousness altogether, or started subscribing to different views.
Others remained in Iskon and developed very critical attitude towards him, and I was somewhere in the middle. I was, you know, I knew that it's just a temporary thing. And you know, that's that was my my attitude.
And you being one of the senior members there after uh he left his post, did you have to come in to do kind of like you know, damage control in the sense of like, okay, things are falling apart and I gotta, you know, there's someone has to come in and help out. Was there a group of people or was it you or was it a few?
Like, how did that happen? During the most difficult time, crisis time, there were other GBCs for Russia, for Soviet Union who were there in Moscow, who were helping a lot.
You know, Niranjana Maharaj was there all the time, uh and uh Bhakti Vibhava Maharaj was there, Gopal Krishna Maharaj came there specifically to deal with this critical situation because it was, you know, the majority of devotees in the Soviet Union at that time were his disciples, his loyal disciples, sometimes his fanatical disciples,
uh, and there was a major major major uh split in the society. So uh Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja came at that time. So they were all there uh during the most critical period that was August
September of uh nineteen ninety-eight. Even Radhanath Maharaj came very bravely, he came at that time. Uh it was a difficult period of time. Yeah.
Some of his loyal uh and fanatical disciples they they were threatening and you know it was it was not a very pleasant situation which I don't want to... Sure, sure.
Um so when But when they left uh it actually uh it actually fall on my shoulders more or less because I was I was made by Harikesa Maharaja GBC at that time.
Uh in uh 96 I became the GBC member first candidate and then uh 1997 I became the GBC member. So it mostly was um to a greater extent, it was my responsibility, especially for Russia, for Ukraine.
Niranjana Maharaj was taking care, and it was not so dramatic in Ukraine because leaders there were uh little more level headed. Yeah.
Official registration of ISKCON in Soviet Russia
But in in this case it was mostly my headache. Right.
Did the was the um persecution from the government at the same time of this uh change with the management of ISKCON, was it was that happening simultaneously or was or was it? No, no,
uh you know the uh severe persecution was during the Soviet days of uh uh Russia so to speak because you know for the West Russia Soviet Union is basically the same for them Ukraine is Russia, Belarus is Russia, Uzbekistan is Russia, they all say Russia.
Right. But Russia is a different entity, it's a different separate country. And in nineteen ninety one, I believe, the Soviet Union fell apart. Unfortunately, I must say. Oh, I anyway, uh it's uh it's another drama.
Uh so uh and uh the communist regime also more or less was finished at that time in 91.
So the persecution was basically uh from uh late seventies uh like uh seventy sevens uh yeah, probably even seventy nine from seventy nine to uh 186.
Because in 1986, Gorbachev started his perestroika, and the regime was much more soft and not so oppressive and the communist ideology became different.
So due to the Gorbachev's influence till probably eighty seven, eighty eight, it was the difficult time and I recommend highly recommend to you to invite Kirti Raj Prabhu as a guest to your show and uh ask him about this period of time.
Yes. But uh in um in eighty eight uh the Russian society or Soviet actually, Soviet Hare Krishna movement was officially registered in the Soviet Union. Okay.
And after the long procedure, it was actually the first religious organization officially registered in the Soviet Union after the Second World War because the government didn't want to register any new religious organizations.
So we were uh we had the privilege of being the first religious organization registered officially, recognized officially by the government in 1988 uh uh eighty eight and uh yeah and uh so
uh the threat from the government was different at that time there was just pressure. It was not such a thread, but it was a difficult situation. Yeah, it was going on simultaneously.
External situation was not. Has never been actually very uh uh peachy and rosy, but uh uh the internal situation became very intense so it was it was quite mad. Yeah.
So so nineteen ninety eight was when you know you um there was that uh you know change of management and and to devote you know devotees there was a confusion and whatnot and so it fell on your shoulders to kind of pick up the pieces there.
So what did you what did you do to keep people inspired, keep things together?
Restructuring the movement through education
I don't know how many temples there were, how many, how many devotees were there, and what was like the situation at the time?
Uh it's difficult for me to say for the whole Russia because I was mostly in Moscow, and Moscow was the most uh you know a most important center and still most important place for the whole Russia because Moscow is the place where everything happening. So the temple was deserted.
All of a sudden, you know we had you know the temple room packed and all of a sudden uh it was empty. You know, the temple room was packed practically every mangala-arati.
We had at least uh in Moscow temple at that time at least we had at least a hundred devotees for every mangala-arati and then you know from hundred devotees we went to three something like this. And uh yeah.
So what I did, I basically started educational programs for the devotees because I felt that this somewhat irrational reaction uh or this dramatic situation emotionally understandable but uh the dramatic situation show that devotees were not very established in their philosophical views.
Right. They were not, they didn't have deep roots in uh in the philosophy of Krishna consciousness, and that's why uh they were swayed uh by some propaganda of uh some emotional propaganda.
Of course, Russian people are generally emotional, and that's why they're easily swayed one way or another. They're like Indians in this regard. They're quite similarities. There's a lot of similarities.
Definitely a lot of similarities.
Once Bhakti Vidya Purna Maraj said that there is, you know, Russian people, the Western people they are gross and uh uh rational. Russian people they are gross and emotional, and Indian people they are emotional and subtle. So that's that was his analysis.
Right. Right. Anyway, so I started educational programs, and uh and that was basically my own inclination all the time, and I was happy doing this educational programs.
We started Bhakti Sastri in a big way, and that changed the situation ultimately. And those devotees who remained, they remained. Of course, there were some other problems.
It was never like there was never a dull moment when you are in Russia. Yeah. I guess you I guess you were educating devotees to understand like Guru Tattva in the sense of that it's it's a lot more than a personality or one person is a tattva there's a tattva involved with that.
Exactly. What I did actually I invited Shivaram Maharaj uh uh to give the seminar initial seminar. I think he was the first one who came after this dramatic situation more or less was sorted out.
In October he came very graciously he agreed and he gave his seminar on Śikṣā-dīkṣā and guru-tattva basically. Right. And it was very helpful and uh it created some some Some you know, sanity uh for many devotees. Right.
When let's talk a little bit now more in recent times, let's see in the 2000s, when did it what was the what was the kind of the pulse at that time and when did it really pick up because right now it's just is just exponentially growing i think there's some hundred temples in just one little city or bhakti virkshas like everywhere and thousands of devotees.
That's what I that's what I hear. So let's talk a little bit about more recent times.
No, it's an exaggeration that there is hundred temples in our that's what I'm hearing, but if it's an exaggeration, yeah you heard it you heard it here. It's a mythological story.
Yeah, there may be a lot of bhaktivrixas, maybe. But it's also sometimes little inflated uh from the reality figures. Right, right.
Rapid expansion of the Russian yatra
Okay. But uh see what happened.
Uh when Soviet Union fell apart and when Russia became all of a sudden open, that was before uh in the end of 80s, beginning of 90s, you know, communist ideology, which was dominant ideology of the time, was not functioning, people were completely disillusioned, and they were starting to look for solutions.
The vacuum which was created by the complete fall of communist ideology actually opened the doors to all kinds of different religious movements, not only Hare Krishna's, we were the first one, but not the last one, you know.
So many religious movements they just flooded Russia. Wow.
Yeah all the all kinds of mm you know Moonis and uh you know Mormons and this and that uh they all basically and this and that uh they all basically uh uh entered Russia at that time and Russian people were very unsuspicious. that was very prominent and very notable in Russian society at that time.
So all kinds of sects were there, all kinds of new religious movements were there.
And therefore, naturally, the reaction against all these new religious movements was also there, allergic related reaction of the conservative part of the society.
Because all these new movements or novelties, they threatened to destroy the fabric of the society. So that's why I came in the beginning of the 90s back to Russia and started this uh this public relations war.
But actually, from the very beginning, when I came, I realized that uh it's not uh that the external threat is most important at that time.
Immediately when I came in 1994, I realized that the most problems are coming from the uh inside.
The devotees are not educated, they cannot really uh interact with the society, uh, they interact in a very unhealthy and fanatical way with
the society, with people, they alienate uh people against our movement and that's why what the all this uh you know situation happened.
So I started educational program even before that, because I realized that this was not the main problem. The main problem is inside Russian society.
But at that time, uh already millions of Prabhupada's books were distributed in uh Russia and former Soviet Union, the countries of former Soviet Union, because it was easy at that time.
In the beginning of the 90s, there was a severe economic crisis. You know, the whole economic system fell apart. There were huge factories uh which couldn't pay the workers.
So the book distributors at that time they would come to a factory and they said, you know, why don't you uh they didn't have cash money. They only had money in the banks, but they didn't have cash money.
So they couldn't pay the workers uh uh their salaries,
so the book distributors, they used this situation, they came and they would say to the uh to the director of this particular factory: why don't you uh get our books, give us some bank money, we can accept and uh instead of salary you give our books to the workers so it was not unusual then one book distributor would distribute you know uh twenty thousand books within one day or something like this because he would subscribe the the whole factory or the whole you know uh mine uh you know charcoal mine or something like this.
They would go to some remote places and uh subscribe people. So there were millions of Prabhupada's books, literally.
Actually, in the beginning, uh Harikesh Maharaj and North European BBT they donated uh 150,000 Prabhupada's books. Uh it was early in 1988 when the society was officially registered.
So from this 15080,000 books uh printed in Germany and exported into Russia. You know, the whole book distribution saga story started.
And because so many people already had the books, uh even though uh the uh problem which uh was created in nineteen ninety-eight uh was Was severe, but still the preaching was going on.
New people would come because they were reading Prabhupāda's books. And at that time actually the outreach preachers started their preaching work.
We have one of the uh causes reasons why uh Krishna consciousness is spreading so um so widely in Russia and the countries of the Russian-speaking in the Russian-speaking world, let's say, yeah, it's that there are many outreach preachers, very powerful and dynamic preachers, uh, who uh preach Krishna consciousness uh in somewhat
Linguistic connections between Russian and Sanskrit
in indirect way by preaching some Ayurveda, yoga, this and that, and ultimately speaking about Bhagavad-gītā and distributing Prabhupāda's books, and that's why so many people join the society. So Prabhupāda is preaching, his books are preaching, his followers are preaching, and uh that's why the movement is uh flourishing.
That's one cause. Another cause is of course, uh the special mentality of Russian speaking people. As we said that there is some similarities between Indians and Russian speaking people.
And you know I think, it has a lot to do with the language itself.
Because we see this phenomenon which you already mentioned, that uh Russian people join not only in Russia, they join in America, they join in uh Germany, they join in uh England, they join in uh I don't know in Finland, they joined all over the place.
And it's not Russians, of course, for Westerners or for you know for all these Western people, they're all Russians. But it's Russian-speaking people. It's Ukrainians, Belarusians, it's Lithuanians, Latvians.
They also joined, you know, the Baltic Republics, uh they're different. The people are different there, but still Krishna consciousness is very prominent.
Uh, for example, in Lithuania, there is you know so many devotees in Lithuania, Krishna consciousness is so much recognized by the society there.
And I think to a certain extent, the mystery is hidden within the mystery of the language because the language creates the mentality and mentality creates the you know how you view the world, the world, the cognitive uh, the perception of the world, you know, your worldview more or less is formed by your language.
And Russian language is very close to Sanskrit language, uh it's structurally it's much more close to Sanskrit uh than for example Hindi or even Bengali.
You know, the linguistic uh structure of Hindi is very simple, it's simplified, uh, or Bengali language. It's very simple languages in one sense.
Uh, of course, uh there is a lot of Sanskrit words within Hindi language and Bengali language, it's basically Sanskrit lexicon, so to speak.
But structurally, uh grammatically, uh, Russian language is much closer to Sanskrit than for example Hindi.
Uh when you say when you say that the the the language creates that world view what do you what do you mean by that could you give like an example oh simple you know uh uh uh What is language?
Language is actually uh the experience of people of this land.
You know, if we take Sanskrit, uh we have so many this is our topic, uh we have so many uh words, synonyms or of different words which uh which describe uh love if we take uh you know english language we may have you know love affection attachment that's about it.
But uh in uh uh in Sanskrit you have you know raga nurag bhavmahabhav uh pranaya sneha, Brahma, Bhava, and uh this all different words which uh actually describe the same phenomena from different angles.
It's not the same thing. They distinguish between this.
It's a different thing because they they uh not without a reason they have different uh words because it's a different view how you see the on the object of your description.
For example, in Sanskrit, you have around 70 different words for water alone. Uh around 30 different words for fire, you know.
In English there is one fire, just fire, you know, but uh in in Sanskrit you have fire which is there in your stomach, the fire which is there uh which is uh and you know there are seven different fires within this fire, they distinguish between this, this fire is for this yagya, this fire is for this yagya.
It means basically that the people of the ancient Vedic culture they were much more observing and much more careful into this phenomena of this world, they could distinguish different, you know, seven different flames of fire, seven different kinds of flames. You know, uh, this is one kind of fire, this is another kind of fire, this is another kind of fire.
So uh you know you can only see in the world outside of you something which is reflected in the language. If it's not reflected in the language, you will not be able to see it.
You will not be able to recognize the phenomenon outside if it's not reflected or recorded within your brain through the media of language because basically we're thinking linguistically.
The way we think, we cannot really think.
Sometimes people say that I I you know I have images, but uh you know, this is very limited uh ultimately we think uh by the you know linguistic formulas which we have through the media of language.
And therefore, the language has a lot to do with the mentality of people. Language forms the mentality of people, the worldview, their modus of uh interaction with other people and with this world.
And that's why I think this is one of the reasons why uh Krishna consciousness is so uh near So
you're saying that when when books when the Krishna conscious books were translated the Russian speaking people were were more were able to more relate with the philosophy because they were able to uh understand it via their language in a more kind of descriptive way because of the langu because of the way the language is.
I think so because uh see what is bhakti? Bhakti is basically an emotional uh approach to uh to the world. You know, ultimately, according to our tradition, what is the spiritual world?
The spiritual world is called Bhava Jagat. The bodies of the living entities in the spiritual world they consist of emotions. They consist of bhāva.
You know, like we know that uh in this uh Babuji tradition they uh during initiation uh esoteric initiation they give this ekādaśa-bhāva, eleven bhāvas to a practitioner. You know, and the dress is a bhāva.
The you know the your age is a bhāva. Uh so in the spiritual world, everything is emotions. Your age is your emotional attitude towards Krishna.
Your dress is the manifestation of your emotional attitude or your relationship with the Krishna and your service with the Krishna. So basically bhakti is all about cultivating the emotions or refining the emotions.
Transiting from um Gross material emotions to the subtle or transcendental spiritual emotions of the spiritual world, you know, refining the emotions and bringing the emotions, you know, and serving Krishna with the emotions. You know, this is the most important and most uh glorious service because uh this is what is going on in the spiritual world.
And the Russian language, which is not so rational, you know I I will tell you a little anecdote about Niranjan Maraj. Niranjan Maraj is a very prominent preacher and a glorious devotee who preaches in Russian speaking hemisphere of the world for many, many years.
He was one of the first preachers who came to the Soviet Union and bravely stayed during difficult situations. So many, many times he uh tried to learn Russian language. Uh really, I didn't know that.
He understands some Russian, but it was very difficult, and he uh he told me actually a little story which uh which blew his mind.
He said he was reading some uh handbook uh or textbook uh about Russian language in one of his attempts to learn Russian.
And the introduction in the introduction to this handbook of Russian language, it was said that the beauty of the language is defined by the number of exceptions from the rules in the language and then it was said Russian is a very beautiful language.
So that's why he he just couldn't you know foreigners have a hard time to learn Russian because there's no rules. It's only exceptions to the rules. So and it definitely creates a mentality of Russian people.
The Russian people are it's very difficult for them to follow the rules. Russian people are very mystical people because they think that being mystical they're exempt from following the rules, you know.
You know, people who speak English and because I speak somewhat English, my English is not good, but still I speak some language. You know, uh I have a mixed mentality.
But uh Russian people who don't speak other languages,
they have a very peculiar mentality, which makes them perhaps not very disciplined people, but very emotionally driven people, people who are emotionally uh you know that they base their uh existence upon the strong foundation of their emotions.
And this is actually what you know if you read Dostoevsky, you can see, you know, people in the West, they're very much, you know, they they for them Russian literature is basically Dostoevsky. And what is Dostoevsky?
He describes all these wild emotions which are going on. And for Western people, it's such a peculiarity to uh see all these descriptions which he's uh giving in his novels.
Anyway, so uh I think uh this is at least one explanation it's my explanation is that and see uh very interesting another example uh about talking talking about the connection between the mentality and the language.
In English there is passive voice and there is active voice. But the passive voice plays a very insignificant role in English. In fact, if you type something, if you compose something in English,
and there are too many passive constructions in your composition, uh you know, your word processor uh will point out, and the word processor will say that there is something, there is a mistake, you know.
Make it—instead of saying it was done by me, say I did it. So basically, and this is very much reflected in the mentality of English people, they're the doers. You know, they are the controllers.
That's why British people they conquered over practically the whole world because the tendency to do something, to achieve something, to control something is very strong. You know, American people are the same, you know.
And it's very much connected with this active verb system in English. If you take Sanskrit, in Sanskrit it's much more stylish to write with passive construction, in passive voice.
Passive voice is much more, you know, it's a better style in Sanskrit if you have uh more passive voice because we know that we're not the doers ultimately. According to the philosophy, we are not the doers.
Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate, you know, only the fools think that I'm the doer.
They know that the whole reality is much more complex. And it's not only me who is doing something, uh, you know, there is also Krishna and this and that.
And that's why the passive constructions are uh also uh prominent in Sanskrit, or so prominent in Sanskrit, and so recommended by the you know style of the language. What is Russia?
In Russia, passive constructions are also extremely prominent in the language. But also passive construction, the very name for passive voice in Russian language is stradatelnyl zalog.
Which literally means the suffering voice, you know, Russian people because the situation is quite oppressive. Uh uh traditionally, historically, it's a very oppressive thing.
You know, they uh uh the mentality uh reflected
into the language of Russian-speaking people is that Russian people are usually very you know they have uh tolerance within their blood, they they can tolerate much more difficulties than the other people.
And it's reflected in the language. And we all know, you know, tridāpi su-nīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. This is also sort of uh mentality conducive for uh practicing Krishna consciousness.
So this kind of tolerance to the external difficulties is within the mentality of Russian-speaking people. They are much more uh tolerant when it comes to endure uh the difficult situations in uh in the life.
Translating Prabhupada's books into Russian
Right. So that's going back to going back to the language, when you trans— when there was translation of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books, you said, you know, there's a way— there's different angles to look at certain words.
So was it different was it more difficult to translate the books? Because there's for for one word in English you could use different words in Russian. So how did that happen?
Yeah, it it is translation, it's always uh an interpretation, you know. You know, because you cannot just really translate literally, you cannot just put one word mechanically, uh because it it will not make any sense.
You have to translate the meaning uh first, you have to you know understand the meaning very well, and the meaning is defined by the context, you cannot just translate one sentence separately.
You know, if you only translate one sentence, you inevitably commit a mistake, especially uh if you translate in the language like Russian.
In uh in English, you know, there is a fixed order of words, but in Sanskrit and in Russian, there is no fixed order of words.
You can put order, you can put it this way or that way, uh it all will be grammatically correct, but there will be nuances of the meaning.
You know, you change the order a little bit, it's still grammatically correct but the meaning is somewhat different you know uh which is sometimes subtle so it was difficult and therefore actually I
mentioned uh about this madness in Krishna's guard and uh BBT, North European BBT, when people were translating Caitanya-caritāmṛta uh and they would make a marathon. From the very beginning, I said to myself, I will never go into any marathon when it comes to translation. Because the Russian language was the only exception.
It was a very slow language line because it was difficult. I from the very beginning I started translating very carefully without rushing into it.
Sometimes I would translate only one page a day, which was unheard of in portions. You had to translate for you know at least you know 20 pages a day to be a good translator.
Sometimes I would sit over one sentence for one hour to translate it into Russian, trying to find the proper word into Russian and uh grammatical structure of the sentence which would reflect the meaning intended
By Śrīla Prabhupāda. So it's it's a very difficult uh job, but of course you know because Russian is so unique and Russian speaking people oftentimes don't speak other languages, uh there was a very there is a very good
powerful school how to translate other languages into Russian,
you know we have the most beautiful translations of all the you know literature, English literature, for example, Shakespeare, Shakespeare or Salinger, for example, or you know, Hemingway, they're beautifully translated into Russian, uh, expertly translated into Russian.
So, and because I was a literature lover, I I love literature,
I wanted to translate Śrīla Prabhupāda's books into Russian with a style, not just you know putting some rinky tinky style so sort of stuff you know but to convey the language.
Of course Śrīla Prabhupāda's books are so powerful that even you know even a sh uh shabby sort of translation would work, you know. I've seen it.
His messages are so strong and he's so powerful and he's expressing his message that even bad translation conveys his message sometimes very powerfully.
But you know, my approach was uh let's uh do the proper translation so that educated people can also relate to Śrīla Prabhupāda's books and uh Śrīla Prabhupāda's message.
Current challenges facing the Russian yatra
So what do you think? Being someone who's been in the yatra for so long, what do you feel are the challenges that Yatra faces in growing so exponentially? What are some challenges that you're facing?
As I said in the beginning, you know the rapid growth creates a lot of challenges because people uh when there is a rapid growth, people tend to be quite shallow in their approach to practice.
So, therefore, uh as I already mentioned my um my approach was always to stress the education, boiling the milk, uh not the exponential growth, because it's in one sense easy in Russia.
you know people are people are prone to to join uh but uh to make them uh you know established in krishna consciousness practices of krishna consciousness is definitely a challenge.
Because it's one thing to convert somebody, another thing is to make him a real practitioner, real sadaka uh going deeper and deeper and deeper and therefore uh people easily join and sometimes they easily go away you know uh there is a lot of influx and you know people are coming and going.
So this is one of the challenges.
Another challenge is that I mentioned to you the mystical or sometimes pseudomystical nature of quote unquote Russian soul uh russian mentality you you know russian people um you know, sometimes they're attracted to Krishna consciousness, or oftentimes they're attracted to Krishna consciousness, to the mystical side of Krishna consciousness, which has
Has which is good in one sense because the Russian people they want to have the real mystical experience.
They're not really satisfied with the formal uh execution of rules and regulations, following rules and regulations and you know formalities of religion. They want to have an experience. This is a good part.
But the bad part is that sometimes they you know they want cheap mystical experience. They join Krishna consciousness and you know this is called as we know Sahajiya.
Recently I heard a joke which uh Bhakti Vikash Maharaj mentioned, he said that when he first visited Russia together with Prabhavishnu Maharaj at the time, you know, they experienced uh Russian uh devotees for
the first time, and uh while flying back to England, they were exchanging their impressions with each other, and um Prabhavishnu Maharaj said to Bhakti Vikash Maharaj, you know what? I think all the Sahajis from Bengal and Bangladesh were born as Russian devotees.
So uh so this this kind of pseudomystical liking, like cheap sort of mystical approach when people start imagining something and uh actually relating to their imagination as real spiritual experience is another challenge, special challenge.
Contributions of Russian devotees to global ISKCON
And of course, uh I already mentioned the external challenges because uh the Russian society in general tend to be more conservative than the West and in this conservative society our exotic religious movement may not be so much welcome. So that's another challenge we may have.
What do you think the rest of Iskan can learn from the Russian Yatra? In the way it's growing and the way it's uh churning out devotees, there's something to learn there, I think, from the rest of the world.
I don't think we can fully say that uh you know it's it's just the I mean I I know you didn't say this, but it's just a language and that's why. But there's other things that maybe we can learn.
When Śrīla Prabhupāda first came to Russia, and by the way, this year is the 50th anniversary of his only visit to Russia, he visited Moscow in uh in June. I believe it was twenty second of June or twenty-first of June of nineteen seventy one.
He was very much impressed by Russian people, and he said said, uh, these people will be the greatest theists.
Now they are greatest atheists of the world, and they're trying to spread this atheism all over the world, but as much as they are very great atheists, they will also be great theists.
Because Russian people, that's another peculiarity or very important feature of Russian mentality. They're thinkers and they want to know the deeper meaning of life.
They're not satisfied with consumerism or this sort of you know approach to life. Then just consume, just be happy, enjoy your day, you know.
I remember when I was traveling in America, you know, this this sort of greetings, you know, when you go to a gas station and the lady in the gas station say enjoy your day, you know. Just enjoy. They'll just say enjoy.
This this sounds quite quite crazy to Russian people. Sort of superficial approach to life. Just enjoy. Enjoy. Right.
That's you know Russian Russian speaking people they want to find out to know the more deeper meaning or uh of what life is all about and I think that's one of the reasons why the outreach or this indirect outreach is so successful because you know people are looking for uh uh
you know Russian people are looking for this meaning, and I think, you know, answering your question, I think the rest of our society first of all uh can learn from uh Russian devotees, uh, their preaching enthusiasm, enthusiasm about preaching.
Because we know that according to Prabhupāda's design, uh, preaching is not only the means to spread the movement, preaching is also the powerful means of our spiritual our own spiritual development because this is the kirtan.
When we speak about Krishna, glorify Krishna, we understand deeper Krishna consciousness, philosophy of Krishna consciousness.
So uh one definitely one lesson which uh the the rest of the society may learn from Russia is the great enthusiasm for preaching, you know unending and uh you know undying enthusiasm to preach this message to other people.
And to get so much inspiration from the preaching because uh you know Russian people are usually very inspired, Russian devotees are very inspired uh uh this is one thing uh which can be learned.
Another uh lesson which can be learned is that uh you know we should not give up, as Prabhupada said, uh Russian people will be greatest thieves because Russian people and Russian devotees they are stubborn.
You know, if they want to go somewhere, they go somewhere. They just they want to go there. They don't give up despite all the difficulties.
They just, you know, if we do something, let's do it and let's find out what is what is there. So this this determination uh is another uh lesson, good lesson.
In fact, in the 80s, when the whole Iskon was experiencing a lot of troubles because of the zona lacharya problems connected with the fall down of different prominent leaders of the society.
The Russian program which was started by Harikyes Maharaj and was gloriously led by Kirti Raj Prabhu and his wife actually, Haripuja Devi was such a big inspiration for the whole movement.
I know it because I in eighty seven I immigrated to Sweden and I knew how much the whole movement was inspired by the uh what's was happening in the Soviet Union, by the level of commitment and determination and enthusiasm which Russian devotees were ready to endure to go to prison, to labor camps, even to die for Krishna. That was such an inspiration for the rest of the society.
You know, in comparison with it, you know, some of our modern problems can become a peanuts, you know. So you thought it's totally, totally.
Oh my goodness. Yeah, it's it's like when when Krishna consciousness it becomes something that you're fighting for..
Yeah Then it's then it's when the real growth and determination and so many uh wonderful qualities are created in that crucible, so to say, where where there's a lot of pressure happening, amazing, beautiful things happen.
And I think that's a lot of what's missing sometimes in the West. Of you know, from my own perspective, we're very comfortable here in America. You know, it's a very comfortable life.
Krishna consciousness is very easy in the sense of practicing it and and but but but to to really imbibe it become a sadaka preach it share it with others fight for it exactly. Yeah.
Amazing story of of Russian of the Russian Yatra.
Engaging younger generations of devotees
One last question, Maharaj, for you before we end. Uh I know we're coming close to the end here.
Um looking towards the future, you've seen so much through the years and now we're looking to the future, the next generation of devotees in Russia, younger devotees. What do you see? Is it hope-giving?
Do you see something that uh concerns you, or what is your attitude towards that?
Of course, there is a lot of concern because uh the new generation of people, you know, this internet generation or social media generation, they read less.
They prefer instead of reading they prefer some audiobooks and we all know audiobooks means you're driving somewhere and you're thinking about something and something is sticking in in your ears. Yeah. And uh uh you know
the all this social media creates a lot of um unhealthy uh situation by uh by spreading all kinds of rumors and uh lies uh and um offenses so this
is all areas of concern and we know that people when children are uh too much into all these technologies and devices, they become less creative.
Krishna consciousness actually is supposed to invoke the creative nature, but uh people due to too much uh connection with the internet and computers becomes little dull, you know
when when the children see too many cartoons and sometimes you know headlessly brainlessly the you know parents uh just give them smartphones when they're two three years old and you know let them have this thing and but uh ultimately it makes you dull because you're not really creative in your approach to walls.
So, in general, that's not about the Russian but about the new generation.
You know, what's going to happen with these people, how they will be able to take Krishna consciousness and to practice Krishna consciousness, which is a challenge in one sense.
But I'm also hopeful, cause, uh, there is a lot of enthusiasm, uh, and I can see that young generation of Russian devotees they're preaching very actively uh you know like I
have some disciples and every one of them is preaching you know you know and they all make devotees. So like for example, one of my disciples or students, he is he takes people to the mountains,
he takes a group of people, he knows some different routes, and you know, he he gives them experience. He says you just put aside all your uh mobile phones and
computers and will go for one week to mountains, we'll be uh there, uh, you know, bathing in the rivers and uh going into the caves and you know experiencing this wildlife. And you know, he takes 20, 30 people at a time.
And while taking them, he preaches to them Krishna consciousness. And inevitably, you know, 20 people go with him to the mountains, and week ...all 20 of them chant Hare Krishna Mahā-mantra. Wow.
At least some very powerful, very favorable to the audience. And you know, there are so many people like this, you know, they're doing this little preaching here, this little preaching there.
And uh therefore, I think there will be some sort of uh revolution, uh you know, some sort of uh all this little preaching here and there uh ultimately will change uh the situation and
uh maybe what you said uh will become true that there will be hundred temples in a city, maybe but you know now it's yeah. Right.
Personal focus on deep study and Sanskrit
One one last question before we end. I'm sorry. Uh what is your focus now?
Being you know, not a I I I don't believe you're a manager anymore there, your spiritual uh guide and you're you know guru and everything so what is your focus now been in
...at this point of your life, I spend a lot of time, uh, in Vṛndāvana nowadays. I uh study deeply, I'm writing books and I'm learning Sanskrit language because I realize that uh language is very important to have the proper mentality. So I'm I spent some time in uh in Karnataka in uh Udepi or Bangalore where there are many people who speak fluent Sanskrit and uh from Madhva tradition.
I uh associate a lot with uh different pandits of Madhva tradition as well, and I spent a lot of time here in Vṛndāvana uh interacting with people and you know I still preach I just came back from Russian tour.
Uh, for three months I was in Russia, but my my focus at the moment is to go deeper and to share whatever I will be able to share with other people. Wonderful.
Because as I said, uh, you know, we need deep roots uh to really be successful in Krishna consciousness, and we have to boil the milk and uh I think this is my main contribution. Thank you so much, Mahārāja. Wow.
It was so very wonderful. It's such a pleasure to speak with you. like a more historical kind of uh account, but I know you have so much to offer in the the philosophical theological uh realm.
We can also talk about uh maybe perhaps I can bring you on, we can talk about something else, maybe uh you know, something to do with um uh sādhaka uh uh be being a sādhaka or anything uh related directly to Krishna consciousness philosophy.
I think uh you know you have a lot to offer there. But thank you so much, Mahārāja, again, for joining me. I really appreciate it.
And uh uh I just learned so much about the Russian Yatra and I'm so indebted to you for all the service that you've done throughout the years.
I think many devotees don't know it, especially in the West, so please, Mahārāja, uh stay on. I'm just gonna turn off the recording. Thank you, everyone, for listening. This is the late morning program.
You can find us on YouTube and Facebook and all their uh podcasting platforms. Hare Krishna. Thank you everyone. Have a great rest of your evening.