Bhagavad-gita 3.36. The Essence of Vedic Culture
Бхакти Вигьяна Госвами · Лондон · 2016
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Reading Bhagavad-gita on sinful impulses
So I'm very grateful to all of you and especially to Sundarananda Prabhu and his family for hosting us. Last year we had a program in this whole And I spoke a little bit about the nature of Hinduism, what Hindu Dharma is.
And today I kind of will continue a little bit about the nature of Vedic culture and what is the essence of Vedic culture, and I will also specifically explain what it entails to control the mind.
I want to make it like a smooth continuation of the previous class, even though you don't remember anything. Still. Anyway, let's see what's going to happen.
I will chant one beautiful verse from Bhagavad-gītā which is spoken by Arjuna. This is the 36th verse from the third chapter of Bhagavad-gītā called Karma Yoga.
Omnamo Bhagavate vudevaya, Omnamo Bhavate Vasudeva, Omnamo Bhagavate Vudeva. Sudevaya, Omnamo Bhagavate Vudevaya
Narayanamnamaskritya, narayanamaskritam, naramcheva narotam, naramcheva narotam, devim saraswati vyasam, devim saraswati vyasam, tatogyam udiray, tatogyam, arjunovacyam, arjunavacha Adhake
na prayuktoyam, athke na prayuktoyam, papam charatipurusha, Papamcharati Purusha, Pamamchati Purusha, Anichanapi Varsneya. Anichannapi Varsneja, Nichannapi Varsneya, Baladivani Yodjita, Yodita, Baladivani
Yodjitaha, Arjun Vacham, Athakena Puktoyam, Hakena Prayuktojam, Papam Charati Purusha Anichanapi varsneyah, baladivani yoditaha, y Arjunahuvacha Arjuna Vacha Arjuna said Arjuna Set Atha Then Kena by what? By what?
Prayuktaha impelled. Impelt. I am one. Papam sins. Sins. Charati Das Purusha Amen Anichan without desiring although Varsneya Varsendant of Krishni Balat by force Iva as if Nyodityha engaged. Engaged.
Arjuna said, or descendant of Krishni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? By His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
A living entity, as part and parcel of the supreme, is originally spiritual, pure, and free from all material contaminations. Therefore, by nature, he is not subject to the sins of the material world.
But when he is in contact with the material nature, he acts in many sinful ways, without hesitation, and sometimes even against his will. As such, Arjuna's question to Krishna is very sanguine.
As to be perverse as to the perverted nature of the living entities. Although the living entity sometimes does not want to act in sin, he is still forced to act.
Sinful actions are not, however, impelled by the super soul within, but are due to another cause, as the Lord explains in
the next verse, which is the famous verse, Kām eṣa krodha-समुद्भваः. Yesha Krodesha Raja Guna Samud Bhava Namon
Vishnu Padaya Krishna pristaya budale srimate Baktividanta swaminitinami, namaste Saraswati, Gurawani pracharine, Nirvisnavali Paschatyadeshatarini, Vanchakopatarubyscha, Kripasindu bevacha, Patitanampane Byovaisnave
Jai Shri Krishna Chaitana Prabhunitananda, Sri Advaitha Gadathara, Srivassadhi Gaura Bhakta Vrinda, Harare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Ajanu
Lambit Vujoka Nakabadatu, Sankirtanay Kapita roka Malay Taksha. Vishwam Brad Vijayavaru, Yuga Dharma Palu Vanday Jagat Priya Karow Karu
Vedic versus modern views on happiness
Navataru, Yuntah Pradisya Mamavachimam Prasuptam, Sandzivayatakila Shakti Darak Swadamna, Anyamsahasta Charanas Ramanatva Gadim, Prananamov Bhagavat Purushay to Miyam.
If we try to compare Vedic culture with the modern culture, we will see one starking difference,
which is very important to understand because sometimes people by looking on the Vedic culture from the perspective of modern culture, say it's backward, it's exploitation, women are not free, this and that, it's male chauvinist, and so many crazy ideas.
And still, you know, so many ideas are there. Like I know that people nowadays arguing.
You know that there are some followers of Ravana who say that Ravana was a god guy and was a bad guy. Because he killed Ravana and uh uh as you know there are this people uh from you
know untouchable background and they say that Arjuna he was very bad because he uh he kind of banned Ecalavia and this is all Brahmin dominated society.
All these strange ideas are there from the modern point of view that this is exploitation, Brahmins-dominated ... people don't understand the very essence of Vedic culture?
The very essence of Vedic culture, which is called nowadays as Hinduism, is to make people happy in a different way. Because the concept of happiness is completely different in the very culture and in the modern culture.
Both cultures are more or less trying to make people happy.
But the problem is that the conception of happiness, the very understanding of happiness, ... when we look from this enterprise, which is modern culture, to the Vedic culture,
we only see that this is just people are tortured. But no, people are not tortured, people are taught, they learned how to become happy in a different way.
The modern culture is the culture of the senses and the object of the senses. And the very understanding of happiness is the external happiness. There's no other conception of happiness.
You're only happy if everything around you is nice and your senses are okay. And that's some sort of happiness.
We don't deny that this is some sort of happiness, but we do have a problem with this sort of happiness because ultimately this happiness is not the real one.
Because of its fleeting nature, because it never really satisfies the soul.
So to say that this is the goal of life, that this is the only happiness which is there is actually very damaging to the human beings because uh nobody uh actually with all the achievements of modern civilization nobody really became happy.
Everyone is trying to become happy, and so many nice attempts were made, but nobody really became happy. And more or less, everyone is becoming more and more miserable. Everyone is becoming more and more stressed.
You know, people are the depression is becoming uh basically like an epidemic. In America, as far as I know, according to statistics, around 50% of people they suffer from depression.
The drugs which they take is all drugs anti-depressants which uh uh supposed and this is the uh most affluent country in the world. They were supposed to be happy but why do they take so many drugs if they are supposed to be happy?
That's in itself as a proof that something is wrong with the very concept, with the direction of the civilization.
The difference between modern civilization and Vedic civilization is that while admitting that there is this sort of happiness, external happiness, we're not denying it. It's there and it should be there.
But this is not the ultimate. There is much deeper sense of happiness and peace and satisfaction which can be derived from within. Not external, but internal.
So the very design of Vedic culture is to teach people how to become happy inside. How to reach this happy state which is already there in the soul? How to reach the soul which is supposed to be the complete bliss.
Actually, and that's why these civilizations are so opposite because one is going externally. The modern civilization is only trying to find happiness in the outer world, outwardly.
But Vedic civilization is teaching how to reach the immense limitless source of happiness which is there within. And all the institutes of Vedic civilization is about this.
If we understand this principle and try to look at the Vedic civilization from this point of view, we will understand much more that ultimately the Vedic civilization is teaching the secrets of eternal happiness and peace, how to reach, how to open this eternal happiness and peace which is within us.
And And why this very And why this very attempt is there, Krishna explains very clearly in Bhagavad-gītā.
And we can see also from this verse, there is a hint in this verse, and Prabhupada very beautifully explains that the problem of the human being.
In the purport, Prabhupada said that by the nature, by the very nature, the soul is pure. And being pure, it's happy.
But because of the contact with material nature, the soul becomes impure, and this impurity actually is the cause of suffering. Like if we take this room, in itself, this room is very quiet and peaceful, isn't it?
If there is a noise in this room, I'm making a lot of noise in this room. But that's something external. If I If I was not there, you know, the room would be peaceful. So in the same way, the soul in itself is peaceful.
And every one of us experiences this peace in a state of deep sleep. In fact, people who suffer from depression, their only remedy is deep sleep. Because in deep sleep they are very happy and satisfied.
As soon as they are awake, oh my goodness, you know, they're depressed. So heavy burden is there in the mind, and everything is bad. And they they want to go back to sleep. Why?
Because in the sleep, the soul does not identify neither with the gross body nor with the subtle body. And because the soul does not identify, the soul is very happy. You know, in this state, there's no problem. It's fine.
Because the problems are in the mind and in the body because of our identification with the mind and the body.
So basically, the Vedic culture is teaching us how to be in touch with this eternal happiness and peace in wakeful state.
How to become and be and remain happy even in the wakeful state without all these external disturbances.
And as it is said in this particular verse, that all the problems are because of our contact, unnatural contact, and too much intimate contact with the material nature.
You know, to contact with material nature, it's not a big deal, but we are too closely contacting the material nature. And that's the problem.
So basically, Arjuna is speaking about this, he says that you know what is this force which is forcing me to do something even against my will. And the Vedic culture is about this problem.
The Vedic culture understands that because of internal pushing or some sort of uh internal or whatever or some sort of pushing, uh some sort of force which is forcing us to contact in an unhealthy way with the material nature, because sin is nothing but unhealthy contact with the material nature. Because of this, we are suffering.
Because sin basically means we will be suffering. Sins doesn't mean sin doesn't mean that we will be suffering sometime in the future. Sin means that we are suffering while we are creating sins.
You know, sin is nothing but suffering uh already. Uh and then in the future of course you will suffer, don't worry about this, but uh you suffer when when you commit sins and then you will suffer again even more.
So basically, so uh This is the problem, and the whole Vedic culture, the whole enterprise and design of Vedic culture is to teach people how to refrain from this force, how to remain free from this pushing, and ultimately achieve the eternal happiness and peace which is already there
in the soul and which will be much more intense when the soul is in a close and intimate connection with God. As I said, the intimate connection with the material nature is the source of immense sufferings.
In a similar way, the intimate connection of the soul with its source, the supreme spirit, the supreme absolute truth, is the source of extreme happiness.
Because we are separated from the Lord by our infatuation of material nature, we are unhappy and we are suffering. But it's not enough just to say this.
What we have to understand: how to refrain from it and how to contact with the material nature while remaining in this world in a healthy way.
Vedic culture is not about going to Himalayas and you know sitting in the caves. No.
Majority, the mainstream of Vedic culture is how to live in this world, remain happy in this world, be completely fulfilled and satisfied in this world, and at the same time not be entangled by all the sufferings, immense sufferings in this material world by trying to become happy.
And the modern civilization, Western civilization is completely opposite in this regard.
It neither gives us some sort of advancement towards the spiritual source of our being, neither gives us ultimately any material satisfaction, because we cannot be satisfied. Anyway, so let's talk a little bit about this.
This enterprise of Vedic culture, how Vedic culture achieves this. What we really have to know, the wise people who designed Vedic culture. And the foundation of Vedic culture is laid by the sages.
There is no other culture which is founded by the sages. The great sages, the great Rishis of the ancient times, they really understood how it works, how karma works, how the law of karma works, how our mind works.
Mind programming and childhood samskaras
And the whole culture is to help people to remain happy and untouched by all these unhealthy contacts with material nature and ultimately, to remain to help us to be elevated in the spiritual sense.
What we will see in the Vedic culture, Vedic culture, first of all, the the founders of Vedic culture they understand very clearly that you are acting according to the program which is inside.
People in the modern world they don't understand this. There's so much closely intertwined with the program which is inside that they don't understand how the program works.
But if we take the analogy of the modern computer, we can understand very clearly what's going on in our mind. The mind is nothing but the software, the body is the hardware. And somebody has some nice Apple produced
body and somebody has some IBM and somebody has locally made in China hardware. But uh you know Hardware is only part of the computer. The most important part of the computer is the software, right?
And the computer, you may have a very good computer, but if the software which you put in is a garbage, you know, it will not really work in a very efficient way.
So there is this uh famous uh soft IT or computer technology principle it's called GIGO, garbage in, garbage out. You know, if the input which you put in the computer is garbage, then the output will be what? Garbage.
Garbage. I mean this is the principle which the Vedic sages understood very well. If you put some garbage inside, the output will also be garbage.
You know, if we consider that our mind is nothing but a computer, and we're always being programmed by the external world. What is happening when we are connecting with the external world, we are programming ourselves.
And because of so many unhealthy contacts with the external worlds, the program which we get inside is also unhealthy. And if garbage goes in, then what comes out? Garbage. Garbage.
It's very difficult and I would say even irrational to expect that if garbage goes in that something nice will go out. In Christianity they they have a very strange kind of understanding. It's there in the New Testament.
I think it's Paul, the Saint Paul, he says that it's not important what you eat. It's not important what goes in. What is important is what goes out.
But my question is, yes, I agree it's important what goes out, but how is it not dependent on what is going in? So, this is a very important principle.
We have to very clearly understand that we are being programmed all the time. And you know, we sometimes feel, and this is exactly what Arjuna is saying here. He says that sometimes I feel that I'm programmed.
I may even understand that I don't want to act in a certain way, but still I am forced to act in a certain way. Does anyone experience this sort of problem in his life? And that means programming.
So, how to deal with this problem? In order to understand how to deal with this problem, we really have to understand how this programming works.
Before we understand how we program ourselves, we will not be able to change the program.
And basically the whole Vedic culture is about how to change the program, how to make the program nice, how to change the software so that the output would also be nice.
If the input is bad, the output will inevitably be bad. But the Vedic culture is teaching in a very subtle way how to make the input nice.
First of all, the first principle, which is very much prominent in uh vedic culture is that the most important age where the programming is taking place is what? Childhood. This is first thing which we have to understand.
And therefore, the most of the saṁskāras, and saṁskāra is the foundational principle of Vedic culture. What is saṁskāra? Saṁskāra means basically something which is perfected. Saṁskāra is kara from the verb kri, to do.
To do something perfectly. Basically, saṁskāra, Śrīla Prabhupāda explains this, this is purificatory ceremony. The ceremony which purifies your consciousness or basically which puts in nice program inside you.
Because of our contact with the material nature, we have so many bad programs already there. And basically, Krishna classifies these bad programs.
There are three kinds of bad programs which are inside our consciousness or our brain our mind. Three kinds of programs which make us suffer. What are these three kinds of programs? Kama, Kroda and Loba. Yes.
He says this is the three doors to hell. And hell means suffering. This is three programs. Three very bad programs which are already there in our. It's basically, you know, built-in.
Like you know, all the PCs there with Windows. The producer of PC they put windows inside so that, you know. So we are already produced with this kama, krodha and lobha inside.
So and if we are left alone with all these programs, Krishna tells us what's going to happen. What's going to happen? Trividham narakasyedam. This is the three kinds of doors to hell.
You know, if we indulge in kama, in lust, if we indulge in anger, and if we indulge in uh in loba, in greed, we will suffer. And we are suffering in this world. So to counteract this, this is like viruses.
Like in computers you have viruses which can completely destroy your hard disk, right? You know, the all information which is there in the heart can be completely eradicated by the viruses.
And we can see if people indulge too much in lust, what will happen with them? The whole hard disk will be destroyed.
You know, and this uh in in Western culture there is one uh very tragic figure, in France, de Sade. He's the very perverted mind, and he started writing all this completely perverse literature about sexual, all kinds of sexual perversion, all this basically pornography literature he wrote.
And uh people still read this garbage because garbage in, garbage out. People still very happily and enthusiastically consume this garbage.
But not many people know that this man who was completely sick, sexually sick, he ended up in a mental hospital. His whole brain was completely, totally, absolutely destroyed. He became... nobody speaks about this.
Everyone is still happily consuming something which brought him to hell in this very life. And the Vedic culture is about antivirus programs. You know, like Amritananda told me that he is marketing antivirus programs here.
And we all know there is this Kaspersky antivirus and you programs. You know, so Vedic culture, you better buy this antivirus program and be safe mediculture is about this they know that there are these three kinds of viruses which is inside.
Very dangerous programs. May I ask you: does anyone have some lust? Once, uh, one devotee approached Prabhupāda and said, Prabhupāda, I have no lust.
Prabhupāda looked at him and said, maybe you should go to a doctor, because if you have body and if you have mind you will have lust. So basically we all have lust. And if we have lust, we will have what? Anger and greed.
Because anger and greed is nothing but the nice children of lust. You know, if your lust is not satisfied, then you will become angry. And please tell me, does anger have the capacity again to destroy our mind. Completely.
It produces certain sorts of chemicals, and when you're angry, you can do horrible things. You can kill even closest friends or even parents, even children. It happens. People become completely, totally oblivious.
Krishna says this, uh, in Bhagavad-gītā itself. He says Sangat Sanjayati Kamah Kambat Krodat Bhijayate. Krodat Bhavati Sammaha.
When you become because of this Sangha, Kama develops when the kama is not fulfilled, then anger develops, when the anger is not fulfilled, when the anger becomes really overtakes you, then some hats, smriti vibrahmat, you know you become completely oblivious. You don't understand who you are anymore.
You do horrible things because you are totally forgetful of who you are. And, uh, you know, this is when your kama or lust is not satisfied. But when your kama or lust is satisfied, then you develop what? Greed. Greed.
No win. If your kama is not satisfied, you become angry and you become completely crazy. If your kama is satisfied, you become greedy and become completely crazy too.
therefore and everything else is just a byproduct of the same the same problem, lust. And, uh, the, the, the lust is the program which is inside us. And that's a big problem. It's a big problem.
We have to really understand, very clearly understand, that it's a big problem and it creates immense sufferings. It brings us to hell in this very life, destroying our intelligence, destroying our memory, destroying our nice consciousness.
So, and because the sages which were founders of Hinduism knew this, from the very beginning they built in the very culture certain elements which would counteract all these viruses all this antiviral programs they already built in the Vedic culture.
And as I said, they're called saṁskāras. Why the last is there? The last is there. Why is it so strong? It is so strong because of these sexual saṁskāras which we carry out, which we carry in for many, many generations.
We have this very, very strong drive for sexual enjoyment. And it's there, the saṁskāra is there.
So the sages, they designed the Vedic culture in such a way that people would get other saṁskāras which would modify and pacify this dangerous saṁskāra. And make it manageable. And I will explain how, what to do with this.
It's I think it will be quite useful for us. It's not just a pep talk. It's something very practical.
First of all, as I said from the very beginning, that the most important age where most of the saṁskāras should be done is the childhood.
In fact, it is said according to the modern psychology also that most of the programming which is taking place in the human mind is taking place before the age of seven or eight.
Actually, the Vedic sages say that the event which takes place in our body, uh which is crucial, when our uh uh teeth,
uh initial teeth, they fall out and the permanent teeth grow. It basically means when the permanent teeth grew, it basically means that's it, you already finished.
I mean finished finished in a sense that everything is done. You know, you already have permanent teeth.
It's a moment in your development when certain things are already grown up and it's already formed, more or less your mind is formed.
It's very difficult to change anything afterwards, and we all as devotees know this because we're trying to change, but sometimes not very successfully. So why? Again, because when we are grown up, it's difficult.
When the child is very small, before his permanent is grew, then you can really program him nicely. And therefore, in the childhood, all the saṁskārs are there.
First of all, because why is it so important? Why is this age so important? Because in this age, people the memory is very fresh. People just get the mind. What happened while the soul left the old body?
Then there was a certain process of sort of sorting the experiences. The karma kind of solidified it's a very subtle process. So all the experiences of the past life, they are more or less pushed in the subconsciousness.
And you get completely, totally fresh, new mind. You know, it's as if you got a new computer with a big, nice hard drive.
You had an old computer, and there is a lot of garbage there, and there is a lot of, you know, we all know what is there now, hard drive, you know. So you just kind of pushed it aside, and there is a lot of nice space.
And you start filling it up with the new impressions. And because it's so fresh and so nice, the new memory which is there, then everything and on the top of it you don't have the guard.
Why the impressions are not so strong in our adulthood, in our adult age? Because we have very strong guard against this impression. This guard is called false ego.
And ego filters all the impressions and kind of modifies it according to our liking or disliking, this and that. But the little child doesn't have ego and has this nice fresh memory.
And any impression which you give to him leaves very deep, saṁskārs inside. You know, and therefore all our childhood memories are so strong and so bright.
You know, if if the child. sometimes we don't even remember this, but still the memory is there. This is what people who do psychoanalysis try to discover certain impressions which are there uh which still affect you.
You may not remember it. You had some suffering uh while you were a small child. Or you know in psychoanalysis they actually analyze this programming very nicely.
When little child is there, and the mother, you know, and he's trying, you know, this is a funny uh example, but it's example from psychology books, so I'm not making it up.
Please forgive me because it's a little strange, but still. You know, little child is trying to pass two.
And he's he's sitting there, and the mother she became impassioned and she says something you can do this you know and it becomes a program in his mind and this this for mother it's nothing. She just said it in passing.
She didn't make any big deal out of it. For the child it's everything. It's the program. You know, he gets the program inside the mind. I cannot do this.
And it can create such an immense and such difficult psychological problems in the future because the problem is there, very deeply ingrained in his psyche.
Therefore, it's so important to say certain things to the child, you know, it's so important not to yell at him, not to scare him and just to pamper him.
In a Vedic culture, it's very prominent you really have to not to scare the little children because this will this may spoil his whole life. Because you're programming him in a very important way.
So, what I want to say is that in Vedic culture this understanding of the fragile mind of a little baby was very prominent,
and therefore, all the samskaras were designed in such a way that to give the nice impressions in this fresh memory. Like, for example, the child was not supposed to see anyone besides the mother for at least 3 months.
The mother would remain with the baby for three months alone and would give him just her love and only love.
Because everyone else they're not so loving to the child, especially if the child is yelling and crying and anything. And you know, some other people may hurt the little child.
You know, sometimes I fly in a in a plane and because the people who fly in a plane, they're not from Vedic culture, they take little babies in a plane.
And the little baby is just scared to death. He's just crying all the time. And all other people who are sitting around him, they are not happy about this. And he feels it. Because he's so sensitive.
He's sensitive for all these negative emotions which goes.
So in the very culture, for three months the baby has to be alone with the mother, completely in the protective environment, and then there is a certain some saṁskāra the first when you first enter when you're first going out of the house.
And you're supposed to take the child where? To the temple. Because this is the best environment. Because you feel you. This is the first impression of the material world, of the world which the baby has to have.
And when he gets this impression that this is, you know, the protective environment of the temple, nice vibrations, nice smells, nice sounds,
everything purifying, this will give him very strong programming which will protect him from all these bad programs which are there.
Basically, what I want to say is that Vedic culture is designed in such a way to protect our mind from the bad influences. From the very childhood, it's giving us the protection.
And we uh as adults may not even understand uh some of you from this Indian background and whether very culture is still to a certain extent exists. So it's a very lucky birth because you're protected.
You don't even know how you're protected, but you're protected. Because this is the nature of the culture.
Purifying power of sadhu-sanga
The culture is protecting you from these bad influences. And the most protective element of Vedic culture is what? Which gives the most important saṁskāra in our mind. Sādhu-saṅga.
This is if we see the whole design of Vedic culture, we will see that in the Vedic culture it's designed in such a way that you will have to associate with sādhu-s, one way or another.
For example, the famous Kumbha-mela. Why Kumbha-mela is there?
This whole festival, yeah, of course there is a story, you go there and there is a drop. And you know amṛta is there and you you have to really go there in a certain day in a certain time and then you get amṛta.
But this is all just pretext. It's all just pretext for you to go there to this crowded place to meet with whom? With sādhu-s.
Sādhu-s are coming from Himalayas, you know, once every 12 years they go there and you go there. And when you go there, you meet with the sādhu-s and you don't understand the impression which is there in your mind.
Because, as I said, for the children it's clear, very strong impression is there. And therefore, children has to be specially protected from all these bad influences.
But for adults, even though we are because we are adults, we are little dull. And being little dull as adults, we are not so impressible, which is good in one sense.
In this sense, we are protected from the bad impressions and bad influences from the outside to a certain extent.
But still, the influences are coming, but The point is that even the adult, if he meets with a sādhu, with a real sādhu, gets a very strong saṁskāra in his mind.
Because sādhus they have a special influence because of their sādhana, because of their spiritual elevated status and everything else. When we come in contact with them some very strong samskaras are left in us.
Like today I heard a story from one devotee who's just beginning his career in Krishna consciousness. Just four months back he became a devotee.
But then he says, I remember very much once one devotee came to our house and he was giving us some prasāda and books, and my mother didn't like him, but I loved him. And that was many years back, maybe 10 or 12 years back.
But this little impression, little contact with the sādhu who came to their house and selflessly was trying to give something to him, left impression which ultimately brought him to Krishna consciousness.
And this is, again, this is the design of Vedic culture. Vedic culture is trying to protect people from all these hellish sufferings which are there built in in our mind by giving us good saṁskāras.
And besides the saṁskāras of the childhood, it gives us the main the most important saṁskāras by stressing this point of sādhu-saṅga. That we have to come, that we have to listen, we have to hear, we have to interact, we have to associate.
We may or may not understand anything. Sometimes we may even sleep in a lecture. When we sit in a lecture and you know it's sometimes it's so peaceful and it's nice kind of doze off. You know.
It's okay, it's fine, no problem. It's better if you sleep in a lecture than than you sleep at home. There is still some benefit. Because the very mode of interaction is different. You're interacting with other people.
These people are spiritually inclined. They are you know there's certain vibrations are there. Therefore, it's so important, it's so important to come to this program, it's so important to come to the temple.
Again, you may or may not understand what is happening, but something very significant is happening at that time. When you are standing in front of the deities.
May you may or not understand anything. You know, because it's called darśana. And sometimes people think that darśana means I have to see something and I don't see anything,
but darśana doesn't mean that I have to see something. Darśana means that somebody has to see me, and this somebody is God. And that's very important. You know, darśana, I I may not see God. I definitely don't see God.
I see something, you know, something, I don't know what. But he sees me. He definitely sees me, and that leaves an impression. It definitely leaves an impression. Therefore, and this association is the is the most important.
Somebody asked him about the definition of devotee, he says, Asat-saṅga-tyāga eva vaiṣṇavācāra. What is the definition of the behavior of devotee? It's just one word: asat-saṅga-tyāga. This is vaiṣṇavācāra.
You try to disassociate yourself as much as possible from asat, from something which is unreal, from something which is not eternal, and you try to come in contact with something which is sat, which is eternal.
And that's basically, the very essence of Vedic culture. Satsaṅga, satsaṅga, in different ways to bring you in contact with sat, with reality.
So that ultimately you will be elevated and you will understand the reality or Sat or real knowledge about yourself. Now, while describing this general design of Vedic culture,
I also want to give a little more go a little more specific and to explain to you how the Vedic culture deals with this problem. Again, as I said, we are already programmed. And we have to be very clear about it.
We are programmed. We are not, as they say in Latin, tabula rasa. Tabula rasa means clean, clean sheet. Clean, you know, yeah, clean slate.
When not really this, the programs are already there, and some programs are nice, some programs may not be nice. So the Vedic culture is teaching us how to reprogram us,
Because ultimately without this reprogramming ourselves, uh we will not be able to achieve elevated state of consciousness.
We will be more or less uh you know doing the same thing again and again and again, uh while using the same programs. And of course I said the the most important part of Vedic culture is the association
with sādhu because when you come in contact with the sādhu, you you basically you completely change your mind. Ah actually I wanted to tell you a little story.
You might hear this story before, but it's a nice funny story about the potency of sādhu-saṅga. That's a story about uh Ambarīṣa Mahārāja and his brother. Have you heard it?
Ambarīṣa Mahārāja was a great saint as we know, he ruled in Madhura and he was a great devotee. And somehow or other he had a very bad brother. His brother was totally, completely, he was a drunkard.
He was really bad and he couldn't do anything. And Ambarīṣa Mahārāja was trying to somehow rather influence him. It didn't work. This internal pushing was too strong. He was somehow rather programmed in a bad way and he
couldn't do anything, he couldn't change his programs.
Therefore, at one point Nārada Muni came to Madhura and Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, he asked Nārada Muni, he said, I try to save my brother, but I can't do anything, my potency is not strong enough. You please go to him and try to influence him.
Tried to change his mind. And Narada Muni said, okay, I'll try it. There's nothing to lose.
He came and this guy, you know, he was completely drunk and Nārada Muni comes in the vīṇā Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna and this guy becomes angry like fire he doesn't want to hear anything
about God because he knows that the very word God or Krishna can destroy his concept of life. And he's afraid of it. He doesn't want.
The problem with all this saṁskāras, first of all, because they program us in a certain way, and second of all, because we become attached to them. And we don't want to lose them. We don't want to give them up.
We don't want to give all these false conceptions. It's very paradoxical, it's very funny if we consider it so many things which caused us suffering immensely. Still, we don't want to part with it.
We don't want to give them up. I know it again and again and again. You speak with somebody, with sometimes I speak with a disciple, you know, and
you know he's wrong, you know that he's suffering immensely, you tell him, he says, no, no, no, no, this is me. I will never change this. And you know this is the most the the this is the part of him which causes the most suffering to him.
He doesn't want to give it up. Never. He's very attached to it. Very determined. So this guy was very determined. He was just drunk like anything and he and he started running
with the bottle of wine behind Nārada Muni. And Nārada Muni started running from him and he was chasing him with the bottle of wine. He wanted just to smash this bottle of wine uh upon his head.
And Narada Muni became really frightened. You know, he he was uh he he always almost forget Hare Krishna Hare Krishna he was running for his life.
And ultimately, but because he promised to Ambarish Maharaj that he should do something, he he was doing favor, ultimately he he ran away, but you know, luckily this guy was so drunk he couldn't really run too fast. You know, he was really staggering and you know he couldn't really run properly.
So ultimately he realized that he will not be able to catch Nārada Muni. So Nārada Muni was far enough from him. And he said: OK, I'll give you up, no problem. But I just have one little request. One little request.
When you will be in front of Yamaraj. Just ask him one question. What is the influence and the glory and the importance of sādhu-saṅga? Please remember this. Anything else you may forget.
And he somehow or other, because Narada Muni asked him with such a humility, with such a profound compassion, somehow or rather it left very deep impression upon his heart. And he remembered it.
And some time passed and sure enough he was produced before Yama Raj in hell and uh Chitragupta Yamaraj's secretary brought his file and the file was very big and Chitragupta started reading this file.
Somebody actually, one uh I had a friend of mine who was before he became a devotee, was a drunkard. And he was in front of Yamaraj. I mean, that's what he says. He says: I was basically dead, he drank too much.
I was dead, and he said, and I very clearly heard that somebody was reading everything which I have done. And he was reading it with such a such a horrible voice. Just by listening to his voice itself, I became frightened.
He was doing he was pronouncing everything and I was so horrified because he knew everything which I did. I forgot everything about this, but he remembered about this.
So he he really, you know that's why he became devotee because somehow He was so frightened and terrified. Anyway, so what happened? This guy, this Sambarish Maharaj's brother, he was there in front and
you know, everything was red and ultimately Yamaraja said, so you know, maybe you have some questions. And at that point he remembered Narada Muni said, I should ask him a question.
He said, please tell me the glory of sadhu-sanga. And Yamaraj became puzzled. He said there is not many sadhus here. I can't explain the glory of sadhu-sanga because usually sadhus are not brought here, so You know,
if you want to know the glory of sadhu-sanga, let's go to Brahma together. Brahma definitely can explain to us the glory of sadhu-sanga.
And they came to Brahma together with him and they asked Brahma, please explain to us the glory of sadhu-sanga. And Brahma said, you know, I am very busy with all this creation.
And you know, the real sadhus they don't like to come to my planet because they say we will have to rot here for so long. They usually go directly to Krishna.
So I I can't really explain because it's such an important subject matter. And I can't explain this. Let's go to Shiva. Shiva will definitely explain to us the glory of sadhu-sanga.
And they went to Shiva and when Shiva heard this he started crying and he said, Look who is following me. All these Buddhas and Pratas and Gujakas.
And you asking me about the glory of sadhu-sanga, what do you understand about the sadhu-sanga? You know? The only one who can really understand and explain to us the glory of sadhu-sanga is Lord Vishnu.
Let's go to Lord Vishnu. And they all went to Vaikuntha with this guy. And they asked, can you explain to us this sinful person, he asked the glory of sadhu-sanga. Can you explain to us? He said, yes, of course.
Glory of Sadhu Sangha is such that very moment split moment of association with Sangha can protect you from all kinds of sins.
And this guy, he's totally protected because he's in Vaikuṇṭha, there is no sins for him anymore. So basically this is this is the very culture. The very culture is teaching us how to uh how to
break the vicious circle of our karma. And there's no other way. There's no other way. We can only break the vicious circle of our karma, otherwise, we will be doing the same thing which we are used to do.
But still, having said this, that uh the most important element
of Vedic culture is uh Sadhu Sangha, I still want to say something about the way how the Vedic culture, besides Sadhu Sangha or through Sadhu Sangha, teaches us to reprogram us.
As I said, that the main point of Vedic culture is to program us in a nice way. We have been programmed in a bad way by our karma, by our previous deeds. They have been programmed by our childhood experiences in a bad way.
Actually, Parasha Ramuni says that it's not only stars which determine our life. Sometimes people go to astrologers, they ask, please look at my karma.
But Parash Ramuni says there are three factors which determine our life. Not only stars, not only our previous karma. Stars is our previous karma.
But besides that, Parasha Ramuni says the childhood experiences, the early age experiences that has immense importance, immense influence upon our karma.
And of course, we can't do much about it, the childhood experience, whatever we had, we had, that's it, this is closed. And then Parasha Ramuni says, and without previous actions, we can't do anything again.
This is also fixed and closed. So he says there is third factor. Your association in this life.
You can change your karma, you can change your destiny, you can change drastically your psychology, your desires if you choose your association. And that's the opinion of the greatest astrologers that was there.
In Parashara Hora Shastra, he says this. The three factors influence our karma.
Reprogramming the mind through detachment
But again, still, I wanted to say something very important about the reprogramming process. Reprogramming process how it works.
Besides all these miraculous things, which is definitely there, you know which leaves us some some scars. There is also very sound process which we have to understand, the mechanism of which we have to understand.
While trying to reprogram us, we have to really first of all clearly understand the problem which Arjuna is formulating this verse. He says: what is this force? How to deal with this force?
Sometimes I do something which I myself despise. I really hate myself that I do it. Still, I do it. I cannot do otherwise. What to do? How to deal with it? So basically, to reprogram us, two conditions should be there.
Only two things which can free us from this condition of being programmed by our previous karma. And these two conditions are: first condition is knowledge. Knowledge of what is good of what is bad.
If I don't have this knowledge, I will act in a bad way, according to my program. Okay? Is it correct? I will only act according to my program.
So you know some impetus will be there, some instinct will be there, the program is there, and I will go for it, like an animal.
You know, therefore, first thing if you want to reprogram yourself, first thing which you have to know what is good, what is bad. And ultimately, this is what Bhagavad-gītā and any other scripture is all about.
They're teaching us what should be done, what should not be done. What we're supposed to do, what we're not supposed to do. This is the first thing which is very important.
Because if we don't have this knowledge, uh there is no chance for us. We will just go according to our karma. We will just do how we feel like doing, right?
We will only do what what feels good to us. And doesn't matter whether it's good to us or not good to us in the long run in the in the ultimate sense uh we will do it. So first is knowledge.
Like for example if you are if you have some certain stomach disease. For example, you have ulcers, and you're not supposed to eat. And usually people who have ulcers they have craving for sour things.
And that's the cause of their ulcers. So if they don't know that this is connected, they will
see some sour things and they will eat sour things because they have the cravings. They will just eat all these sour and hot spicy things, and they will consume it and only aggravate the disease.
So the first thing they should know that they should not eat it. Okay? That's correct? Otherwise, they will just go for it.
But then even if they know that this is bad, still the chances are there that they will still eat it. Isn't it? So that's exactly what Arjuna says.
So first uh to to get rid of karma, uh bad karma or this bad programming which is there. You have to know uh what is bad, what is good, uh what you're supposed to do, what you're not supposed to do. But that's not enough.
What else you have to be able to do? Determination. Yeah, control your senses basically, okay? This is what uh this two things, knowledge and control of the senses.
Uh if these two things are there, you will be able to uh get rid of your karma. You will not be the slave.
And this is exactly what the human beings are supposed to do: acquire knowledge, because only human beings have this privilege to acquire knowledge. This is the first thing.
The second thing which human beings are supposed to do, they are supposed to learn how to control the senses. Now the tricky thing is how to do it. But it's not so difficult.
Uh and uh again the Vedic culture is explaining uh to us. And as I said, this is how uh the uh Sadhu Sangha or association with the saintly people influences us and uh helps us to get rid of karma.
First of all, when we come to Sadhu Sangha, we get the knowledge, isn't it? We get the knowledge how it works.
The knowledge basically means the knowledge how your mind works, how your karma works, how the whole design of this world works, what is the you know, what is the consequences of this and that?
This is the knowledge which you have to have to get rid of karma. This is the first condition. But then the second condition is actually also not so difficult, not as difficult as you may think it is.
Because ultimately you can control your senses and your mind. When the senses and the mind are somewhat purified, You cannot really control very tamasi or very rajasic mind, isn't it?
But if your mind is generally satvik, it's easier to control it, isn't it? Did you notice it? That you know, and therefore the very culture teaches us how to lead the sattvik way of life, influence mind in a positive way.
So first of all, we have to understand what we're supposed to do, what we're not supposed to do. And second of all, we have to understand that we have to be very, very careful about the mind.
We should not contaminate it too much with the influences of Rajas and Tamas. And that's the greatness of Vedic culture.
The Vedic culture, very consistently, in a very systematic way, teaches us how to bring our mind in a mode of sattva so that it would be controllable. Because Rajasic and Tamasic mind are not controllable.
Not controllable at all. I have a I have one experience. I'm dealing with one person, he is a disciple of mine. He's a very sincere person. Very sincere person.
But from a certain background and his mind is very strong and angry. You know, even if you look at his chart, you can see that there is a, you know, this person he brought from the previous life very strong anger.
Very strong anger. And you know when he's angry, I my goodness. It's very difficult. So, uh, and I I'm kind of absorbing what is going on, what how it's happening, what are the processes that are coming.
And you know sometimes you deal with him and it's just impossible. You know he can't control himself. You understand it very clearly. He just can't control because he's in this condition.
But then, you know, the way to deal with this is just to remain completely in a satvik mood. If you remain in a satvik mood, all his anger somehow or other disappears. And then he says, Oh no, now I can control myself.
Because uh his mind is in a satvic mood. And this is the characteristic of satvic minds. Satvik minds are easily controlled. You can say you know, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do this. So that's basically what it is.
The Vedic culture is teaching us these two things. Gives us knowledge and teaches us how to lead a sattvic life so that we will ultimately be in control of ourselves, in control of our senses, in control of our mind.
And um one important thing, very important thing, which I want to say, and that probably will be the last one, uh, the last thing which I want to say is that in order to do this, in order to control the mind, it's
not enough to have a sattvic mind. Even a sattvic mind can make so much problems to us. And even a sattvic mind is very attached, attached to the sense of happiness, attached to some certain nice situations and everything.
It's not enough. The other thing which we have to learn while associating with sādhu's, the most important thing, is is how to you know we have to learn what is good, what is bad.
We have to learn how to lead the sattvic life to be in control of ourselves and to be more or less in control of our life and to get rid of our karma. But then there is one more thing which we have to do.
The most important thing. This third thing, the most important thing, is that we have to, while seeing them, we have to learn how to act without the sense of agentship. How to act in a little detached way.
Because, and this is the most difficult art and the science. But this we can only learn, this art or this understanding can only come to us when we associate with sādhu's.
How they are acting, but at the same time they are detached. They are not attached to the fruit, they're not really selfish, they're not really clinging to the result of their action. They're just doing it.
Doing it in a completely selfless way. I mean different sadhus they have different grades. Some are in a to a greater extent master this art of acting without being attached to results.
Some are much more elevated and they are completely selfless. But still, sadhus means those people who are really doing it without the sense of agentship or the sense of ownership.
And even if we practice this little bit in our daily life. Little bit. This little sense of detachment, meaning that we are not really acting ourselves, but we are watching how we act.
That can eradicate our karma completely. And that's what we have to learn: to be the observer, not to be the actor and enjoyer.
What we are doing now, we are acting and we're trying to enjoy the fruits, and we are so morose.
If something goes wrong, you know, I'm this and I'm this big and I'm that successful and something went wrong and this is so bad. I mean give me a break. It's not so important. We shouldn't take it too seriously.
It will not help us neither in our material life. If we take it too seriously, we will not be able to do anything. We should do our role, we should play our role nicely, but we shouldn't really take it too seriously.
Be little detached. It's just our role. It's little role which we play. And we have to play it nicely, we have to do what we're supposed to do. But at the same time, don't be too entangled into this.
And this is the only thing which ultimately, which we have to learn to get rid of our badh-anarthas and to get rid of our kama and krodha and lobha.
You know the next time when kama will overwhelm you. Or krodha will overwhelm you. Well, it's too late. When it overwhelms you, it's too late. You can't do anything.
But before that, uh see if you try to detach yourself and kind of observe what is going on.
Observe what is going on in your mind, observe what is going on in your heart, observe what is going on around you, not take it too seriously. Then what will happen?
Then these, all these problems of kama and krodha and lobha will not be so strong. They will not influence you too much. You will be able to be detached from this.
You will look from you know the observing point of view and you will say, yeah, yeah. Very nice kama, nice kama. But I don't need it. Thank you very much that you came.
I know that you want to serve me, but really not now, I will call you when I need you. So the same way with anger. You know, uh when you are in control of yourself, uh you can call anger when you need it.
And you drive him away when you don't need it. I don't need you, just go home. I will call you when when I need you. You know, like Śrīla Prabhupāda. Sometimes he would become very angry, very angry, or extremely angry.
But then the amazing thing about Śrīla Prabhupāda that, you know, and people, his disciples who experienced his anger, they were just shaking, you know. His anger was so strong.
And then immediately, just the next second, Śrīla Prabhupāda would smile and say, yeah, nice. It's okay. He was not affected by this anger. Why? Because he was in control. He was using anger to uh to a certain purpose.
So that's the point. While how the association with sādhu teaches us, because sādhus they they teach us what to do, what not to do.
Sādhus they also teach us how we should live the sāttvika way of life. But the most important thing via sādhu teach us how to be little detached, how to be an observer, not necessarily the hero detracting movie of our life.
We are we are the main hero, but the script is somewhat. It's okay, so we wrote the scripts ourselves, and we're trying to do this and we try to enjoy in a certain way. Yeah that's fine, you know.
But don't take it too seriously. It's just a movie. We're rehearsing here. And we want ultimately to come to a nice movie. This movie is going on in Vaikuṇṭha and Goloka Vṛndāvana. It's a nice movie. Really nice movie.
You will love it. But But to get the privilege of watching this movie and playing this movie, we really have to rehearse here.
And for that, uh the first condition is not don't take this movie too seriously and try to see what's going on in the spiritual world while reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other Vedic literatures. And in this way you will understand what the life is all about.
Holy name and overcoming material attachments
Anyway, thank you very much. Does anyone have any questions?
Yes, and that's thank you very much for this beautiful uh programming lesson. Um as a as a doctor, I can completely relate with your uh with your um hypothesis of programming.
Um you mentioned about programming by the Vedic culture. And I just want to take that to next step of talking about the concept of Yogadharma,
which I want to talk about uh ask you about the uh the uh um yuga-dharma for Kali-yuga which is the transcendental sound or chanting of holy name.
So the so obviously the transcendental sound is uh can change the program quite uh drastically and rapidly. Yes.
And we know that it can change it in a in a much more stronger way than than what the saṁsāras have taught us.
So my question really is that when it is so strong, and um we see this very often that uh uh devotees who are practicing for decades and trying to use the sound haven't really still got where one would want to see them. So how does this programming not work?
And the second part of the question was that does the transcendental sound, is it more effective when it starts in childhood as opposed to somebody like us who has come late into the Krishna consciousness. Thank you very much.
It's very, very appropriate and very deep question. Thank you for it. It's a fact. From one sense, scriptures glorify the power of the holy name.
From another sense, we see that you know in our own experience and experience of people around us, that somehow or other with all its power the holy name fails to change or reprogram us.
And we have to be very, I mean, very sober and very clear about it. And um Acharyas they explain why it is so.
They say, and uh in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is also said that the holy name acts immediately upon the person who is simple in heart, doesn't have the envious heart, so to speak. And if he is eager, then the holy name will immediately will immediately act.
It's like this, you know, you have a big, you know, pile of hay and it's completely dry, and you just throw one match there and it's on flame.
But you take the same match and you uh you you put it in a in a green grass and nothing happens, you know. And you you take one match, another match, another match, 30 years you're trying to burn the green grass and nothing happens because it's green.
It just doesn't it doesn't have the same effect. Match is match. Match is powerful, uh but uh because the grass is not dry, then it doesn't work. So that's exactly what happens with us.
And that's why we have to repeat the holy name again and again and again, to make the saṁskāra deeper.
First of all, there's two things which we are supposed to do: one is to be engaged in our sadhana, to make saṁskāra of the holy name as deep as possible.
And to make the saṁskāra deep, like Patañjali Muni explains it in Yoga Sutra, the three conditions should be there. You know, in our adulthood
condition, to make any saṁskāra deep, first of all, we have to repeat it again and again and again.
So therefore, Patañjali Muni says the first condition for sadhana, dīrgha-kāla, dīrgha-kāla means long time. For a long time you have to do it. Second condition is that we are doing this, we are trying
to bring or to create spiritual saṁskāras. But at the same time we are interacting in this world, so it basically means that material saṁskāras overshadow our spiritual experience. And sometimes they are more strong in a sense because we are more
attached to them and so therefore the second condition very important no interruption because when we interrupt, even for
one day, you know, the material saṁskāra start to overshadow spiritual saṁskāras, spiritual experience, and ultimately they can completely, not completely, completely, they cannot destroy it, but at least they can cover it over.
And we we forget about this experience. So every day. And that's uh that's the rule for every practice. Practice should be for a long time, without interruption, every day.
And the third condition is you have to do it with own reverence, with With certain attitude. You have to be as conscious as possible.
Because if you do it mechanically, the saṁskāra will be there, but it will not be deep. The more if you understand the meaning what is going on, if you really kind of try to concentrate in a nice way, not in a very tense
way, but understanding what is going on, then the impression, the saṁskāra, the experience which you will have of the holy name will be deeper.
So these three things which you have to do working on your spiritual saṁskāras. At the same time, why the holy name does not manifest the whole power, the complete power, it's because of our offensive nature. It is very clearly said that the Holy Name, even though all the powers are invested in the Holy Name, withdraws the powers inside. And because it withdraws the powers, uh, you know, it it gives us some experience. And sometimes we get this experience.
Sometimes we feel, oh, it's so nice. Sometimes all of a sudden the real sound of holy name comes and we just love everyone and we just want to embrace. That's rare. It's just normally we just. Uh it's not so deep. Why?
Because we're offensive. Therefore this certain attitude should be there, uh as reverential as possible, understanding the meaning, you know. We're talking with God at this moment.
And at the same time we should avoid offenses and basically avoiding offenses means we shouldn't cling the the main offense which is there, the main offense. I mean all the serious offenses are there.
We shouldn't offend the devotees. uh, justify ourselves, uh, the our sinful propensities, uh while committing w while chanting the Holy Name, uh counting on the purifying power of the Holy Name.
All the serious offenses are there. But the most important offense is the last one to cling for material attachments. I and mine. I and mine. Because this is the offense from everything else comes.
This this very powerful ego which we have. So that basically means that while we chant, we have to be ready to get rid of all these by-products of I and mine. Because when we call Krishna, we say Hari, Hari.
Hare means Hari. Hari means in we're calling Him. It means take away, right? Hare means somebody who takes away. Take away this garbage.
We say Hari take away this garbage, but then when he comes and tries to take away, we say no no I need it. I'm not ready yet. And that's the tenth offense of the holy name.
To be attached to the concepts of I and mine, even though we have heard so many instructions in this.
Because when when the real test comes, we say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't touch me. I know what I'm doing. I'm okay. You know, you go to him, you know, you you better work on him he's
wrong I am right you know you're not right you're rotten here you are rotten inside you have all these problems so that's that's a very troublesome offense. We are we are clinging to our problems.
We don't want to get rid of them, really. So that's the point.
And that's that's why we need again association with sādhus so that we will just at one point say, okay Krishna, I understand, just take do whatever you like with me and you know let's see what's going to happen. I don't have any other option to offer to you.
So uh that's why people chant for a long time, even sometimes without interaction, but because they are really attached to certain things. Krishna doesn't interfere with their free will. He says, yeah.
He will arrange certain things, uh certain events in their life, certain situations in their life when they can understand that this is wrong. But still, you know, I have seen so many people.
Krishna teaches them again and again and again. And even everyone around them already understands what Krishna wants to teach them. Everyone except for them. They don't understand.
Because if we analyze our life, we can see that the same pattern is there in our life. Some repeated situation is there. Why? Because we didn't learn the lesson. Why we didn't learn the lesson? Because we're not detached.
We're still too attached to all our concepts and understandings and we're still the same. And that's why the changes apparently don't happen, but they are happening. There is no doubt about it.
The changes are taking place, especially if we are uh in Sangha of Devotees. Okay. Are there any other questions?
If there is no other questions, then yes, pray to the Uh can I mention something that uh Mother Kalangan uh said to me uh a strange thing once, she she chants quite often in the middle of the night, but she's um she's not alone. She goes uh to where the the the the devotees making sweets and she'll advise them that all the time sh sh uh she may not even be speaking to them but she'll chant.
And she said to me, I'm there and I'm hearing this devotee go with a spade making the sweets in the meal as it was thickening and she says
the chanting becomes um so much uh stronger and she says I'm in the association of a devotee and I'm chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and this is so powerful and I and it gave me some sort of understanding.
So it's chanting in association. And she said that Prabhupada says chanting in association is so much more powerful. Yeah, because it's not the chanting. You're right.
Uh the devotional practices of hearing, chanting and remembering become much more stronger in the association of devotees. So therefore the association is the most important things.
We have to do it together with devotees and that means sadhu sangha and we have to at the same time avoid asatsanga, too close, too intimate association with something which is detrimental to our spiritual progress.
Anyway, thank you very much.