СИНДУ. Отношения со Шрилой Прабхупадой (англ)
Bhakti Vijnana Goswami · 2022
Chapters
Introduction to the dialogue
So I will say a few words of introduction before we start speaking. Marak, you will be the main speaker today. I thought it was dialogue. It will be a dialogue. Nevertheless, you will be the main speaker.
So I'm very happy to start this meeting with or dialogue with Śrīla Niranjana Swami. Śrīla Niranjana Swami doesn't need any introduction.
He has been tirelessly preaching in different countries of the former Soviet Union from the time when the Soviet Union was not former, but the Soviet Union was still there. So he came first time in '88, right?
'80, oh no, '89. So he came to Russia, to Soviet Union many, many years back and since then he knows many, many devotees in Russia and he's loved by all of them.
Not only in Russia, in all Russian speaking countries and all countries of the foremost Soviet Union.
And yes, and then at the same time he has been known for stressing developing personal relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda and therefore I asked Maharaj to speak on this topic or to talk on this topic with me.
As you know, the whole year we have been discussing different kinds of relationship. We started with Madhan Mohan Prabhu about relationship in general, that Bhakti is all about relationship.
Bhakti is nothing but relationship, relationship with God, relationship with devotees, relationship with the Holy Name.
And so this topic is very much intricately and intimately connected with Bhakti itself, with the science of Bhakti. What does Bhakti means? Bhakti means relationship without offenses, based on love.
And we had several conversations along these lines on different aspects of relationships.
And the last conversation for this year before we stop it for some summer vacation is relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda, which is in one sense foundational for every member of ISKCON.
And definitely Niranjana Swami is the best choice to speak on this topic. And without any other long introduction, I suggest that we go and I read the first question which was suggested for our conversation.
Saw our questions which were I did see them. Yes, I did see them. But I'm looking forward here. I don't know where they are. That's all. Yeah. I found them. You found them. Yes. Now I have to find them myself.
You want me to send them to you in the chat? Yeah, you can send it to me in the chat. Yes. Okay. Just now coming. Won't accept them. Oh, yeah. Chat, it's it's so difficult with these chats.
I know it's just it's a drag with Yeah.
Balancing master and Prabhupada
Madana-mohana sent it. What is the proper way for a disciple to develop his/her relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda and with a spiritual master? We have heard that one should give one's heart to his/her spiritual master.
But it is hard to relate how to give your heart to both Śrīla Prabhupāda and spiritual master. Kindly explain. It's a very good question. I'm eager to hear what you have to say about this.
Well, I'm not sure I can give that much Shastric reference in answer to this question. I can speak to you only from some practical experiences myself and realizations. In fact, remember speaking on this topic.
I think it was for last year for my Vyasa puja. I spoke on this topic and I'm going to explain it from my own frame of reference and my own experience of Śrīla Prabhupāda and the previous ācāryas.
Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura.
Because my experience with Śrīla Prabhupāda is that the more I hear from him, the more my appreciation for them increases, and the more that I hear from them, the more I appreciate what Śrīla Prabhupāda has given me in terms of their association and his teachings.
It's sort of like a mutually... What's the word? Enhancing. Enhancing. Enhancing. Yes. Relationship with each other. And I had an experience. I'm trying to remember exactly how he described it. Yes. Okay. I remember now.
I I wanna wanna bring it simply from memory. It should be something that should be living that I'm always experiencing.
But when I first started, when I came to Māyāpur in 2020, I had the opportunity to listen to Śrīla Prabhupāda's lectures more than I had ever had the opportunity before. Let's put it that way.
I mean, I've listened to his lectures.
I mean, I've listened to his lectures, I've read all of his books, and but now I found myself sitting down a minimum of four times a day, either in doing my daily exercises or in honoring prasāda and just nobody else because I was alone. It was me and Śrīla Prabhupāda.
And as I was listening to his lectures every day, somehow, they became a lot more relevant, more than they had ever become before.
And the reason why I gradually realized their relevance even more is because I spent more time also over the course of the last two years than I had previously.
Studying the work of the previous ācāryas, works of the previous ācāryas, especially for those who attend my class, listening to Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta.
I've been studying very intensely Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta for almost two years now.
And along with my studies in Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta also included studies in Lahu-bhāgavatāmṛta, especially Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, Sārārtha-darśinī, Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī in the Sandarbhas, Laghu-vaiṣṇava-toṣiṇī, Bṛhad-vaiṣṇava-toṣiṇī.
I found myself going there a lot more than I had gone previously and I found that I wasn't really reading Śrīla Prabhupāda's books so much as I had been previously.
I was reading the books of the previous ācāryas, and they were enhancing for myself my own realizations of the topic.
But yet along with reading the works of the previous ācāryas, I was always listening to Śrīla Prabhupāda every day. That's my daily sustenance.
And one thing that evolved over the course of the last two years is that Śrīla Prabhupāda's lectures that I was listening to every day, they became deeper than I'd ever heard them.
I mean, I've heard them before I listened to them, but I began to realize that Śrīla Prabhupāda was speaking on topics, the same topics I had been delving in.
They may not have been given as much detail as what I found in the works of the previous ācāryas, but they were all just simply very valuable nuggets, gold nuggets that were coming to life.
And I began to appreciate how these are all coming from the lips of my spiritual master. It's coming from the lips of Śrīla Prabhupāda, and Prabhupāda is giving me the association.
Because one book I I read sometimes relentlessly is Amritavani. I love it.
So many of the things that I find in Amṛta-vāṇī, which is in Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's instructions on many relevant spiritual topics.
Hearing them from Śrīla Prabhupāda, again, even though I went elsewhere, only increased my appreciation even more for what I was hearing from Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī and I would say that that experience in and of itself convinced me of the potency of guru-paramparā, something that Śrīla Prabhupāda always spoke about, always embodied.
He always embodied it because whenever we heard from Śrīla Prabhupāda, he was always quoting our previous ācāryas, and he was always speaking about paramparā.
And the result being is that I found that my relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda and my love for Śrīla Prabhupāda became just ever increasing as a result of hearing the words of the previous ācāryas, which may have been seen as listening to them directly and bypassing Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Now I wasn't reading so much of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books in the last two years. I'm just reading all these other ācāryas I mentioned.
But what happened was is that Śrīla Prabhupāda's lectures that I was listening to every day became so pregnant, so much more pregnant.
And I believe it was a result of his blessings because he always represented the paramparā.
I believe, in answer to your question, and you might say I've gone about it in an indirect way, but in answer to your question, I would say that for devotees now, if they listen to their spiritual masters, and if their spiritual master gives them what they have received from our paramparā, there's no confusion between where to repose one's love because the power of the succession comes through in that way, and that's what Prabhupāda taught.
Shadi Avishaya's what is it? It's taught up by h e k. I get I get lost since I start quoting Sanskrit. I'm so used to speaking just simply English. But one has to get the mercy of of the spiritual master and the Vaishnavas.
You know? And both have to be there if one actually wants to achieve the perfection of devotional service.
It's the duty of the spiritual master to give the paramparā, and if the spiritual master delivers the paramparā through disciplic succession, then an ever increasing appreciation will be there if devotees also listen from Śrīla, listen to Śrīla.
I believe is the duty of everyone because he's our founder-ācārya. Everything that we've learned, we've learned by his mercy. Everything we have, the association we have is by his mercy.
Some devotees may see it as the mercy of their spiritual master, but where would their spiritual master be without Śrīla Prabhupāda?
I'd say it's not just a duty. To say it's a duty almost somehow implies that something I have to do, and I need to be more spontaneous in the execution of devotional service than to simply do the things I have to do. I have to do the things that I want to do.
But if the spiritual masters remind the devotees of Śrīla Prabhupāda's presence, his example, his purity, his compassion, and everything else that he brought to us in a very relevant way to the lives of the devotees.
The devotees will want to hear from Śrīla Prabhupāda. And there's no confusion between giving one's love to one's spiritual master and giving one's love to Śrīla Prabhupāda. There should be no conflict.
It's not a divided heart. It's not a divided heart as long as the heart of the speaker is there with Prabhupada. It's not a divided heart. And I would say that this realization became exceptionally enhanced for me.
In the last two years, spending most of my time associating with previous ācāryas. But yet listening to Śrīla Prabhupāda every day. Don't know if that answers the question. It may raise more questions than I've answered.
If it does, I'm I'm fine with it.
I think it perfectly answers the question because the question is asked from the framework of ordinary consciousness which or you know I don't want to be offensive to anyone, sort of neophytish consciousness which always tries to find some sort of contradictions or, you know, always divides something.
You know, best śāstric or ācārya's illustration to the point which you give is the verse from Manaḥ-śikṣā by Śrīla Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. [Na dharmam na dharmam śrutigatami na ruktam kila guru.
Vraiṣha says to his mind: please don't divide yourself into many branches. Try to understand that everything which you're doing is connected to one Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa is the same.
You know, Caitanya Mahāprabhu is not different than Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. And your spiritual master is not different from Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa in a sense because they have very intimate relationship.
Therefore the ekāntatā or one-pointedness of our love or our relationship is not disturbed by having so many objects of our love.
Because this all objects of our life, they are of our love, they're united, they're the same. They're connected, intimately connected with each other. And therefore there is no contradiction.
You know, the love is still one pointed.
When we see the unity, when we divide in our consciousness, our spiritual master is something and Śrīla Prabhupāda is something, previous ācāryas is something else and Chaitanya Mahāprabhu is something else and Parāśara Krishna is again something else.
Then it's like this, but if I understand the unity, the tightness of their relationship and their love, Then, you know, by relating to one, we're relating to all of that.
By loving one, we're loving all of them and love to anyone in this unified chain means increasing love to everyone else.
As you said, you know, appreciation of previous ācāryas increased and that increased your love and appreciation to Śrīla Prabhupāda because it's very clear that they are intimately connected.
So it's a perfect answer to this question. And you gave the perfect philosophical explanation to it as well. Okay.
Recognizing Srila Prabhupada's pleasure
So the next question is also very interesting. Maharaja, do you personally can tell that you please Śrīla Prabhupāda with your service? How can you tell?
Please share how you developed your relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda, how we can understand what is the will of Śrīla Prabhupāda in our day to day life and actions. What he wants from us, what he expects from us.
Why our connection with Śrīla Prabhupāda is sometimes very clear and self evident and sometimes it fades away, becomes little flimsy, etc.
So the question is how do we know that Śrīla Prabhupāda is pleased with our action, with our service and how to make sure that our understanding of his place is real, not just something imaginary.
And how you tighten the connection. Should I understand that the question is being asked from a frame of reference of myself being Prabhupāda's disciple?
Or should I understand that the frame of reference is a question that's being asked on behalf of all the devotees who are listening? How do they know when Śrīla Prabhupāda is pleased?
I think you should start with the first and then you can broaden the perspective to everyone. This question is multi, I have many aspects, facets, to, yeah.
You can start with your personal experience because there is, how do you personally can tell that you please Śrīla Prabhupāda? So the first aspect is your personal experience.
Well, from my own personal experience, I know that any realization I get, any spiritual happiness I get, any benefits that I get in terms of my Krishna consciousness, could never manifest without Prabhupada's mercy and his blessings.
I mean, that's a conviction I've had ever since I came to the Krishna consciousness movement and decided to surrender myself to Prabhupada's loaded feet, that I'm not responsible for anything of any value in my life.
If I have anything of value in my life, it's because I've taken shelter of Śrīla Prabhupāda. Realizations are valuable. Spiritual happiness is valuable. Association with Vaishnavas is valuable.
The opportunity to take Darshan and render service to the deities is valuable. Anything of the any value that gives me some spiritual happiness can only manifest because of Prabhupada.
And we were talking about we were talking about Raj.
He's talking about a realization I had from reading one of the commentaries of Jīva Gosvāmī where he was explaining how Krishna is himself and gives himself completely so much that even if he's in a solitary place alone, he's always behaving.
He's always acting in in his in his in his form of or in a way that is completely forgetful of his divinity.
And I started to think about the examples of in Ānanda-vṛndāvana-campū or how Krishna was was, you know, stealing butter, and he was looking at his reflect, and that and he was alone.
And Jīva Gosvāmī had given this example that even when he's alone in a solitary place, here he was alone, and he was looking at his reflection in the column and as he was looking at the reflection in the column he was thinking this might be Balaram he's caught me and I'm stealing butter and therefore his immediate reaction was, my, oh brother, please don't tell mother.
If you don't tell mother, I'll share some of this butter with you and and so many examples and as I was speaking to Śivāvatāra Maharaja about this topic and because it was so relevant to the points I was discussing that day, I was feeling some I was feeling some pleasure, undeserved pleasure.
I always know that if I get spiritual pleasure, it's undeserved. And I always remain conscious of that.
If it's undeserved pleasure, if it's undeserved happiness, it means there's only one person I can attribute in my life that I've gotten something, received something undeserved because if I look at my own qualification, I don't deserve any of it, nothing.
And therefore, you know, put two and two together, and therefore I understand that I can only experience these realizations. I can only experience some happiness.
I can only appreciate and relish the association of devotees because somehow Prabhupada's pleased with with my efforts, my tiny little efforts, my tiny little steps to do something.
Somehow Prabhupada is pleased and that's how I in my life I live on those drops. I live on those drops. They carry me. They sustain me. They're they're life giving. And so that's first part of the question.
I guess you asked, how do I know is pleased? I wish I could say that I know Prabhupada is always pleased with me, which means that I would also have to reflect in saying that I'm always feeling spiritual happiness.
I I but I don't. So I can understand that sometimes I may be doing something that's pleasing to Śrīla Prabhupāda, and sometimes I'm not doing something that's pleasing to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
But if I know I'm doing something that's not pleasing to Prabhupada, I have faith that Prabhupada will show me that I'm not doing something that's pleasing to him and will correct me from within.
And because he's none different from from the he's checa guru, and he's within the heart.
And when I'm not doing something that's pleasing the Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm quite sure that I'll get some mercy, and because it's always there, it's always available, and I may get a little correction so that I can do something to make him smile and become pleased again.
Discerning Prabhupada's daily will
So, You're speaking in retrospect in one sense. At least one aspect of this question, how do we know at the moment when we are supposed to choose something at time of choice, which is sometimes very difficult?
How do we know what Śrīla Prabhupāda wants me to choose or to do? At the moment of the difficult choice and in general, the general direction of my life, is it pleasing to Śrīla Prabhupāda what I'm doing?
Or is it something which is my own concoction?
Well, I often use that purport that Śrīla Prabhupāda speaks about in the third canto of the Bhagavatam and the prayers of Brahmā for creative potency in an effort to answer that question or sim or similar questions.
When Prabhupada explains that fortune is a person who's entrusted with the responsible work, and the execution of his responsible work, if he's always conscious that he's subordinate to the will of the Lord, then even though the external result may not appear to be the right result, but because he's conscious, he's subordinate, then it will become right because he's in the right consciousness.
And if he's not conscious of his subordinate position, was Krishna say also in the Bhagavad-gītā eighteenth chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā, all activities just depend upon me and work under my protection.
Such devotional service. Be fully conscious of me.
If you're conscious of me, you'll cross over all the obstacles of condition life by my grace, but if you do not work through such consciousness and act through false ego, not hearing me, you'll be lost.
In a similar vein, in the execution of our services, when we have to make decisions, we should try to make the decision which is in terms of subordinate to the instructions that we've been we've received from Krishna and his authorized representatives.
In my case, I try to to make decisions in terms of what I may have read in Śrīla Prabhupāda's books, what I may have heard in one of Prabhupāda's lectures.
But I'm also very, very conscious that following Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm very conscious that sometimes it's more important to follow the spirit of Prabhupāda's instructions than a letter.
Because I believe, and we talked about this once before, believe, in a, maybe it was when you asked me to speak to the Bhakti Vedanta Academy.
I think I talked about this, the the difference between the spirit and the and the letter. So I was giving the example.
I seem to recall I was giving that sometimes people take the letter of Prabhupada's instructions, and then when giving it to others, they have a tendency to ram it down on the stroke, whereas Prabhupada's spirit was not like that at all.
Prabhupada's example was not like that at all. Of course, Prabhupada could sometimes be very strict, but he was also very liberal.
And he always taken took into account what was best for the for the recipient to hear and to accept, and he was very, very conscious.
In fact, I even remember bringing up that point in reference to something from Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta, how Prabhupāda was giving talks at one Indian man's home in Calcutta.
The Indian man was a diplomat of sorts and a well known influential person. Prabhupada, he invited Prabhupada to come and speak, and he had gathered many, many people to hear from him.
And one of the things that this man described as his greatest appreciation for Śrīla Prabhupāda is that he understood everyone's mentality in the room.
And he spoke because the person who invited them knew the mentality of everyone's in the room.
And what he appreciated about Prabhupāda is he understood the mentality of everyone in the room and Prabhupāda spoke to each one individually according to what they were able to understand and accept and he did it all in one in one talk.
I mean, that's Prabhupāda.
So in the same way that try to do what Prabhupāda wants, try to remember Prabhupāda's instructions, what he would want us to do in that particular situation, and and but then depend on him for the for the results.
Be conscious that I'm subordinate to Prabhupāda's instruction and Prabhupāda's example, and tried to remember sometimes the execution of Prabhupada's instructions.
It may be just as important to follow the spirit of Prabhupāda's instructions than to follow the letter.
Because if we follow the letter all the time, sometimes we may find ourselves following an instruction probably gave to somebody who needed that instruction, and he may say something completely different to somebody else who needed a different instruction.
And this is how an answer to another question, how I reconcile contradictions.
Because Prabhupada, sometimes we have a tendency to to be like cherry pickers. You know, we just go in and we pick out what what suits our our our instruction for Prabhupada, what suits our own conclusion, and we pick and choose. Prabhupada gave instructions according to different time, places, and circumstances, and we have to be careful to not pull everything out and to say it's universally applicable, but try to understand the spirit behind the instructions. So, I would say that in answer to your question and avoiding presenting it in a retrospect way, that's how I would deal with having to make a decision.
I would want to make sure when I make that decision, I'm making the decision which I feel Prabhupada would want me to do under the given circumstances and time and place that he would want me to decide.
And then depend on his divine will and Krishna's divine will for the results, and if at some point I see that maybe I have to alter, maybe I have to change, Prabhupada changed.
He altered many things that he said that about one thing he said one time, and at a date he said something quite different. Was Prabhupada a contradictory personality? No.
He was an expert judge of time, place, and circumstance. He would want us to become like that also. Does that answer the question? Or you is that, it does. It does. Does.
But there is another aspect of this question, but if you allow me, I would like to elaborate something
on what I would you more than allow you. I welcome it because I said this was going to be dialogue and you're supposed to be speaking too and I'm not supposed to be the, you know, the limelight of the presentation.
So first of all, it's a beautiful answer to the first part of the question that how do we know if Prabhupada, at least, you know, it basically we should know it because we have something valuable in our life. If something comes to our life, realization or some unusual feeling or some experience, that should be the indication that somebody above us is pleased with us because otherwise how do we get it? It's a perfect answer to the first part of the question.
And if we view all the amazing gifts which we get practically on a daily basis, like today I'm in Delhi. And always when I come to Delhi, I'm always overwhelmed by the hospitality of local devotees.
Gopal Krishna Maharaj trained them so well. Amazing. Totally amazing. Yeah, that You feel his presence everywhere. Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, I feel Gopal Krishna Maharaj's presence and I feel, you0 know, if we look at this as Prabhupada's mercy, totally undeserved mercy coming to us. And mercy means Prabhupada is pleased with us.
So that's a very good answer. But I wanted to a little bit elaborate on what you said speaking on the other part of the question. I also appreciate very much what you said.
Is that how do we judge whether what we are doing is pleasing to Prabhupada or not and the moment of when we are doing it.
I think there is the most very important and valuable aspect of what you said is that what is the motivation of why you're doing this? If the motivation is false ego, then for sure it's not pleasing.
No matter how good you're doing.
You may be doing amazing things but if you're motivated by your false identity, false ego, desire for prestige, then there's no question of anyone would be satisfied besides yourself and even this satisfaction will be very illusory and temporary and flickering.
So I wanted to confirm it.
Selfless motive in service
Basically that's how I would answer this question.
If you're doing not what you want but what somebody else wants and if you're sure that somebody else whose will you're fulfilling is doing something which is pleasing to Prabhupada, then only you can be sure that what you're doing is pleasing to Prabhupada. You yourself not a perfect judge, but if you're doing the will of somebody else who is dear to Prabhupada, who has done so much for him, and you're doing it, you know, willingly and happily, then for sure Prabhupada will be pleased.
You know, sometimes I say that the happiest period of my life, the absolutely the best period of my life was when I was, well, there were different good periods in my life, but when I came to Sweden and I de facto, although I came to Sweden to surf in the BBT, but very quickly I realized that Kirtiraj Prabhu appropriated me and there is very little time for my direct service to BBT. And practically twenty four hours a day I had to serve Kirtiraj.
And he was very spontaneous. He was not following Vaidhi-bhakti, he was following Raganuga-bhakti. He would go to bed around 02:00 in the morning.
I had to be next to him and basically fulfill whatever he wanted at this particular moment. And he was yelling with his loud voice through the whole Swedish farm, Almixgard, why do you not come here, do this, do that.
And, you know, in retrospect that was the happiest spirit of my life and I was absolutely happy.
And the reason why I was happy because I was doing not something which I wanted, but because I was doing something which he wanted.
And because he was doing something which was very important and valuable for Śrīla Prabhupāda and Śrīla Prabhupāda was pleased. So at least this is one very valuable and important criteria how to decide what to do.
Just give up your own ideas and do what somebody who knows what he's doing or who is close to Śrīla Prabhupāda asks you to do.
And I'm sure many people can confirm my experience, like Madhu Mohana, who is serving you, he probably can confirm this completely.
That was also a very important answer and I just wanted to elaborate on this part of your answer. Thank you. Can I also take that a little bit? Yes, sure. Yes. I very much agree and your example was good.
It was very good because I can imagine at that particular time what it must have been like because I know I know Kaviraja's mood back then and I could just imagine what you had to go through, but it was it's like it it's like a sweet austerity. It's like a sweet austerity to give up your own personal ambitions, to satisfy somebody else.
And what to speak of? To satisfy somebody else whose desires you trust are well connected to doing something which is pleasing to Prabhupada.
And I know that for myself, I've oftentimes said this to devotees, to my disciples, that for me, that's how I make decisions. I mean, what I feel are very important decisions.
I go to the, I just reveal them to the devotees.
I trust, who are motivated to please Prabhupada, who, in my heart, are representatives of Śrīla Prabhupāda, and who, by serving them, gives me such a satisfaction as if I'm serving Śrīla Prabhupāda.
And as I've many times even stated that sometimes because they have a tendency to try to treat me as a friend, I have to try to find secretive ways to do something that's pleasing them, pleasing to them because they'll never allow me to serve them otherwise.
But it's the doorway, it's the threshold of pleasing Prabhupada. And I believe every devotee should have that. And if they don't, they're losers. They're the losers. They lose.
If they don't have a a a doorway, you know, that brings them to to serving Prabhupada. So, your example was very good, and I just wanted to add that to it as well.
Sustaining a Prabhupada connection
Okay, so I'll connect the last part of the second question with the third question because they are quite connected in any case.
So the second part of the second question was why our connection with Śrīla Prabhupāda is sometimes very clear and self-evident and sometimes it fades away.
And the third question: how not to lose the prominence of Śrīla Prabhupāda and pass these values on to the next generation of devotees?
So I think, you know, it's connected because first you have to establish your own relationship and connection, then only you can talk about giving it further to other people.
So please tell, share with us what you think, what is the reason why sometimes we feel some strong connection and sometimes we feel that the connection is not there, it's just a figment of imagination or something like this.
And how to establish it firmly and how to give it to others?
I would say that to answer that question, it's quite similar to what Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura describes in Madhurya-kādambinī as the differences between aniṣṭhā bhakti and niṣṭhā bhakti.
That's, you know, how do we feel Prabhupada's presence?
That's, you know, how do we feel Prabhupada's presence? Well, it's because of, you know, the there are sick there because of the obstacles that exist in aniṣṭhā bhakti, unsteady devotional service, such as anartha-nivṛtti, indecisiveness, you know, and and the the tendency to to enjoy bhakti by enjoying the association.
Yes. And I forget what the first one is. What is it? The first one, utsāha-mayī. And Yeah, False enthusiasm. False enthusiasm.
We may be very enthusiastic about our surrender to Śrīla Prabhupāda, but it's based on a false conception of ourselves. These are all simply characteristics of devotional service which is unsteady.
How can we expect to be steady in our connection with Śrīla Prabhupāda if we still have these characteristics of unsteady bhakti?
And if we want to become more steady in the execution of our devotional service, then we have to, you know, as Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura describes, the transitional stage between aniṣṭhā-bhakti and niṣṭhā-bhakti is naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā.
And I would say that hearing about Śrīla Prabhupāda is also nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā.
And if we want to be steady in our faith, in the execution of our devotional service, we should not be clueless about who is Śrīla Prabhupāda. We should hear about him more. We should read about him more.
We should read about his exalted qualities and his loving exchanges with devotees, his compassion, his spontaneity, and at the same time, his strictness.
Every aspect of a devotee is embodied in the personality of Śrīla Prabhupāda. So much so that, you know, to know him is to love him.
And unfortunately, I find that many times devotees are just clueless about who is Śrīla Prabhupāda.
And I believe it's the duty of their preceptors to somehow remind them that nobody should be clueless about who is Śrīla Prabhupāda in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
And the more we hear about him and keep him alive, then we can become a little bit more situated in the platform.
As I said, the transitional stage is naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, then we can come to the platform of more remembrance of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
That along with our appreciation of hearing from those who remind us about Śrīla Prabhupāda.
And as we said before, we should be very careful not to divide our love in the ways that you so nicely and philosophically described.
Therefore, the devotees should be very careful not to relegate Prabhupāda into some distant, what's the word, irrelevant position because "I have my guru".
He's relevant to everyone, and I believe that's how we can keep Prabhupāda alive now in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and if that same spirit is there, it can continue into future generations. It can't be artificial.
You know me when it comes to artificially imposing rules and regulations on people.
I'm a firm advocate of inspiration, that inspiration comes from hearing, and inspiration comes both by hearing and by exemplifying what one is hearing and what one is teaching. If both are there, inspiration will come.
It's infectious. If we talk more about Śrīla Prabhupāda in this way, and if we act in remembrance of his personality, then it's infectious.
People want to keep Prabhupāda alive rather than just telling everybody, "You must read." It can only go so far with, "You must read Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta." It only takes people sometimes so far.
They just can't get beyond "I know I must read, but I've got so many other things to do, so many other books I wanna read."
"My guru Mahārāja is speaking on this wonderful topic, and I have only so much time," so "You must read Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta" can only go so far. It can only go so far. So it needs to be inspired.
And then the more it's inspired, then we'll be able to remember him more. I was just listening. Just the other day, Prabhupada was talking about this point on a lecture. He was talking about two things.
He was talking about actually, just this morning, he was talking about writing. He might be happy to hear this.
Prabhupāda was talking about how he was really emphasizing—very, very important—he said devotees must write if they want to realize, speaking about that, but he was also, the other day, he was speaking about what we hear, if we repeat what we hear, we will remember. He said, if we don't repeat, we won't remember. And, therefore, he was speaking about how a a devotee is very kind and compassionate to others by repeating what he has heard so that others can derive the same benefit and an advancement.
Advantage, and you will remember. He was specifically speaking about persons who want to remember. So, same thing with Prabhupāda. We hear about him. We tell others about him.
We speak about topics that are very inspiring about him to us. And if we relish it, that's how Lord Caitanya distributed love of Krishna by relishing in himself and by his relishing he was giving it to others.
Same way love for Prabhupada.
It's very interesting because just today on the way to Delhi when I had a long ride, somebody, follower of mine sent to me his essay on some topic connected with the current situation in Ukraine.
And I was reading it and I really appreciated the way he described some internal understanding of what's going on.
And it has become very clear to me that, you know, if he would not write this he would probably forget all these realizations which are coming to him.
But because he crystallized them in putting it in writing, choosing the special words and that it really helped him to imbibe this experience and, you know, make it very much alive.
So really thank you for this point that we should write. We should not only speak, we should not only hear, we should also write.
You know, it's one thing when you hear, it's completely other level if you try to repeat what you have heard, but it's yet another level if you try to put it in writing and crystallizing it in a very, you know, succinct and proper way.
And then it goes really deeply and therefore we should hear about Śrīla Prabhupāda if we want to make it steady. Our understanding we should speak about Śrīla Prabhupāda and we should also write about Śrīla Prabhupāda.
I'm speaking it because I wrote a book. I do. Different stories of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
It really gave me, you know, a lot of new It's one thing if you just read it, but when you have to put it in writing and think about it and think about different aspects, how his personality transpires through this exchange which is there. It becomes much more deeply ingrained in your heart.
That's for sure. That's a very good advice because as you very aptly said in the beginning that the problem of unsteadiness is our unsteady mind. And how to chasten the mind, how to make the mind steady.
You know, hearing is the beginning, speaking is the next stage, writing is the next stage. You know? And then, you know, it becomes, it really helps you to stabilize because writing is a sort of meditation.
It's a sort of smarana. When you put it in, you know, in a very clear way, when you try to put it in a very clear way. So that's a very good and beautiful advice for sure.
There was something else I wanted to say in this regard about making it steady, you know, by steadying our mind. Basically what you said, very important thing which you said. You know, what is the sign of an unsteady mind?
The first characteristic of an unsteady mind is that, you know, the unsteady mind has many goals. It's many branched. Many branched, that's right. Yeah.
There is no very clear set of values in unsteady mind and therefore many things are equally valuable. And because they're equally valuable, you want to achieve this and you want to achieve that.
You know, if you have a very clear set or hierarchy of values and if you know that this is the topmost value, then whatever you do, you will try to achieve this top most value.
So basically if we want to make our relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda steady, then we have to, you know, put him or his personality and, you know, his role in our life on the top of our value system.
And if he's there in the top of our value system, then all our endeavors will be directed to this.
But if we have many equally valuable goals which we want to achieve, then, you know, we will have many branched intelligence. You know, it's like there is these deers which live and they have this many branched crown.
Endless, endless. Yeah, yes. So, we will be like them. That will be our minds. Many branches minds going out in every direction. Okay. Papa has even said once, why be a jack of all trades when you could be master at one?
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Jack of all trades. Yeah, that's very much dependent on the value system. You know, value system reflects the level of steadiness of our mind or of our intelligence. That's very apt.
Passing Prabhupada's legacy down
So the next part of this question, how to give it to others, to the next generation and what is the responsibility of the present generation in passing this legacy down the line to others?
What would you say about the responsibility of that? Well, I think to some degree you already answered the question. How to give it to the next generation is by writing about Śrīla Prabhupāda.
That's definitely a very relevant way, writing about how Śrīla Prabhupāda, what Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions, his example, his life, and his movement means to you.
And I believe that that if devotees leave behind these instructions, very, very valuable instructions.
I don't believe that they should be extracted, and every sincere, serious follower of Śrīla Prabhupāda should be leaving something behind for future generations, because Prabhupāda's life was just so variegated in the way in his way of dealings with the devotees, but at the same time, consistent. Both elements were there.
And then you can always see, and whatever devotees speak about Śrīla Prabhupāda, you can always take a thread, and you can run that thread to the realizations and see Prabhupāda's consistency.
But at the same time, you can see how unique Prabhupada was in his dealings with people, as we described before.
And the more we leave behind for future generations, and the more people become serious about cultivating pure bhakti, which is the only reason why Prabhupāda came, and it's the only thing he came to give us, then it will naturally follow that Prabhupāda will be remembered and revered and kept alive within our society as long as we take the responsibility to keep proper part of life within us, within the society now by speaking about him and by sharing our realizations about him and by writing about him.
That's the only hope for future generations. Otherwise, it's very easy to forget, especially, you know, who knows? We can't predict.
Who knows who Lord Caitanya is gonna send to inspire, to revive, or whatever it may be, even though the Krishna consciousness movement as time, as it always does, changes everything.
And, but we can't predict when that time will come and who Lord Caitanya is going to come and who Śrīla Prabhupāda is going to empower to come whenever the time is needed.
But until then, Prabhupāda is our āmto-ācārya. And it is nobody, at least, I would say, it's undisputable. Nobody presently who is going to even try to replace them.
Yeah, what you said about writing again, or emphasized about writing, you know, nowadays people, they write so much garbage in all the social media. Don't get me started.
You know, people are writing all the time, but they're writing on such subject matters which are, you know, at the very least irrelevant. Generous, that's generous. Of course there are good things to be found.
I mean I will not in any way you know, diminish the importance of those vaiṣṇavas who've taken full advantage of social media and who give only substance, all blurries to substance. Yeah.
I believe if everybody under substance will reconcile all contradictions if substance is always put first and foremost in the center.
And that's, you know, as I said, writing is the best way of meditation because when you write you really have to go deeper into memory and everything and put it in a very proper and chased way.
So that's, you know, so many opportunities are there to write about Śrīla Prabhupāda and his relevance to us and, you know, his personality and his input into our life.
You know, just today we were driving through Hrishikesh and I was doing something and all of a sudden I heard the sound of loud chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare.
Somebody was sitting there and chanting it loudly with few people. I don't think there were ISKON devotees. I didn't even see where they are. I just heard loudspeakers when they were chanting.
But, you know, immediately I remembered, you know, if it was not for Śrīla Prabhupāda, probably he would not sit here and chant Hare Krishna Mantra. It's directly or indirectly result of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Hare Krishna mantra is so famous now and everyone is just, you know, everyone in India just see you and says Hare Krishna, Jai Radhe and immediately recognize you.
And it's amazing how Śrīla Prabhupāda's influence is growing and growing and growing over the time. How it becomes more and more relevant, you know, and more prominent in the lives of people.
But to speak of when the Prime Minister of India promotes Pope, but Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so we have the question number four.
Our disciple's relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda matures during different stages of spiritual life. Of course, you already answered this by speaking about anity-siddha and nitya-siddha bhakti.
Then, you know, relationship is also anitya-sambandha and nitya-sambandha. So it... I guess you can make a case and say that, you know, when śraddhā is there, it means śraddhā and Śrīla Prabhupāda.
When sādhu-saṅga is there, it means sādhu-saṅga with Śrīla Prabhupāda. When bhajana-kriyā is there, it's again in relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda. But maybe you can give some other angle to this question.
Absorption in spiritual instructions
Well, I'd say that I mean, I could give it some other angle. But how much time do we have left? We still have, I would say, half an hour and then we can keep fifteen minutes for the questions. Okay. Awesome.
And we only have two more topics to deal with, five and six. And then after that we can speak, answer the questions.
Well, again, I guess this is a I have a similar question about the question because I would say the maturation of a relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda also depends upon the degree of absorption in Prabhupada's instructions.
And and I'm not I'm not an advocate that everyone will have the same degree of absorption in Prabhupada, and those who do not have the same degree of absorption in Śrīla Prabhupāda are considered to be less, less privileged or less advanced because, ultimately, you know, we judge a tree by its fruit, that the essence of bhakti is to be absorbed in always remembering Krishna and never forgetting Krishna.
So absorption, if somebody's actually absorbed in Krishna consciousness, who's always speaking about Krishna, reminding others about Krishna, yaḥ paśyati ca mad-bhaktaḥ, then how can we say that they're less in a lesser position than than somebody who's always absorbed and speaking about Prabhupada and and, you know, there are certain devotees that I know, like, you talk to Bhakti Raghava Swami, you know, he's always just filled with Prabhupada stories.
You know, there's there's not a single class that he'll give where he hasn't he doesn't tell a story about Prabhupada, you know, it's just At least three of them. And they're always so wonderful.
They're so wonderful, you know, that's like and, you know, they're so relishable.
It's about if somebody gives a class and doesn't mention Śrīla Prabhupāda as much as he does, so we say that the class is inferior, he's not no. I I wouldn't go so far to say that that he's not absorbed in Śrīla Prabhupāda to the same degree, and, therefore, he's he's losing out in something.
Absorption is the essence of our philosophy. And to the more that we're ultimately absorbed in that which helps us to remember Krishna.
And certainly, not everybody is going to have the same level of absorption is what I'm going to say in the topics and memories of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
But that in any way shouldn't, in any way, counter anything that I've already said up until now about the importance of at least everybody having a foundational relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda.
That's is essential for everyone who to have a healthy understanding of why he participates in the Krishna consciousness movement, why he sacrifices for the sake of cooperation in the Krishna consciousness movement, unless there's a solid foundational understanding of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Devotees can very easily think that why should I cooperate and go and look for something else.
And Prabhupada, of course, knowing that foundational principle of Śrīla Prabhupāda will help keep a sense of cohesion in our movement.
So I would say what's essential for everyone is that they're developing and advancing more in their foundational understanding of Śrīla Prabhupāda, and seeing Prabhupada's presence everywhere in in the Krishna consciousness movement that not a blade of grass moves without his mercy, not a center in ISKCON exists without his divine glance, his divine approval.
Everything is meant for his pleasure.
Everything should be used for spreading Krishna consciousness, which was his the goal of establishing this movement, and the more we're reminded about that in the ways I described previously, by hearing about it in an inspirational way rather than the authoritative way, which is sometimes has an opposite effect.
Real authority comes from, again, by example.
And so I'm always very conscientious, as well as I know many other devotees are very conscientious that if they're going to speak authoritatively, they better make sure they're they're following it themselves. Was just speaking about this point just yesterday in class about the importance of teaching, about exam by example. He said, without example, it's very important to convince others. It's very difficult to convince others unless the example is there. And he was saying and he was saying in the specific conversation, he was saying, therefore, my disciples, they must all be good examples if you want others to follow you.
Avoiding institutional fanaticism
I have another question which may be a little controversial. It's not listed in this list of questions, but I think it's a relevant topic which we should discuss now.
Because it's connected with your point about authoritarian way by which we sometimes deal with people, deal with their problems and by which we sometimes try to impose Śrīla Prabhupāda in their lives. I completely agree with you that this is a very dangerous way to go.
Try to force Śrīla Prabhupāda upon somebody and force his authority upon somebody's life and it with all good intentions which may be behind that, it will ultimately result in a lot of disservice and disappointment.
So connected with this point which you gave right now, how we should be very careful about imposing Śrīla Prabhupāda's authority upon others.
There was a person I encountered who said that because of this overemphasized importance of Śrīla Prabhupāda is gone, Devotees don't develop spiritually. Again, this is his opinion.
I'm not subscribing to this opinion, but I think it's important to give the answer to this notion or to this opinion.
He said that because we always speak Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda. We tend to create blind faith in people.
And they become kind of blind followers of Śrīla Prabhupāda and you know, they don't think for themselves, they more or less, you know, join the cult, so to speak, where Prabhupāda is everything and Prabhupāda is the ultimate savior, this and that.
And his point was that, you know, this overemphasized importance of Śrīla Prabhupāda and relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda ultimately doesn't help people to develop genuine faith, has an element of self-reliance or I don't know what is the proper word or the element of independent kind of need to develop spiritual practice.
The person whom I'm talking about, I'm sure Mad Mohan knows whom I mean. He basically said that, you know, we are distributing more or less superstitions.
Superstition way of relating to the scriptures by overemphasizing the importance of Śrīla Prabhupāda. Superstitious, did you say?
Yeah, because people, you know, they just, they believe in super hero who is Śrīla Prabhupāda and they don't feel the need to develop their personal. But did you mean superficial? Superficial and superstitious also.
You know, some sort of superstitions. Superficial as well, but superstitious as well.
You know, when they substitute the genuine faith into the scriptures, into the logic of the scriptures by superimposing, you know, the figure of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
And, you know, I don't want to elaborate much, but basically he said that more or less this overall emphasis of Śrīla Prabhupāda overshadows the scriptures and the need to develop a personal relationship with the scriptures, personal understanding of the scriptures. Something like this.
You know, so that's the opinion which is sometimes in one way or another way being declared.
And I thought it's important to speak about it because I also think it's very much connected with the previous point which you made when the understanding of Śrīla Prabhupāda again based on, it's kind of fourth. Instead of accepting the spirit of instruction. The letter of instruction.
Yeah, and instead of being spontaneous in our relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda, we feel the need, you know, because there is so much social pressure and emphasis in the society to do this and things like this. So that's why, that's how it is connected in my mind with your previous point.
But I think to some degree I already addressed it, but I'll expand on it. That I would say that an important, a very important relevant point is the motive behind the instruction that's given.
And that's any instruction that's given has to be if it's really gonna be for the welfare of others, it has to be free from envy.
And because it's described in the Bhagavatam, only when one is free from envy, can he actually think of the welfare of others? And the Prahlāda Mahārāja, fifth canto of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That verse. And
And and I I agree that to force Śrīla Prabhupāda's instruction as a way of of correcting somebody. Manipulating people, controlling Controlling him is going to produce an unfavorable result towards Prabhupāda. Why?
Because Prabhupāda wasn't that way. And as I presented before, Prabhupada was always perfect. But especially right now, I'm going through I'm listening to Prabhupada's conversations. I've I've moved from the classes.
Now I've been for the last by maybe one, two months listening to conversations, how he's speaking to different people. And Prabhupada is so liberal in many respects to whom he's speaking.
He's very liberal, even to his disciples.
I was just reading the other day or something when Śrīla Prabhupāda was giving Śrīla Prabhupāda was giving Gāyatrī mantras to Jayananda. And and Jayananda, he he he was asking Prabhupada to help him with the pronunciation.
And Prabhupada, then I had to I had asked him to to give the pronunciation, and and then Prabhupada just broke out laughing, he said, "Don't worry about it, don't worry about it, you're sincere, just chant." Can you imagine, you know, like you know he was even that's how he was. That's how he was.
Sometimes he was strict. He knew who to be strict with, and he knew how to be liberal with somebody.
And so it's the same way I would say in in giving Prabhupada's instructions that that we have to try to understand what Prabhupada's attitude was when he gave those instructions.
And, of course, it's very difficult to understand. And that's why I said before, sometimes Prabhupada gave one instruction to one person, and he gave a different instruction to somebody else.
And if you look at them together, they look like they contradict each other, but actually they don't contradict, because you know, mahājano yeṇa gataḥ sa panthāḥ, one has to understand, you know, that that the solid truth of religious principles is found in the heart of an unadulterated vaiṣṇava of the Lord, and therefore, one has to look for the substance of the instructions, then not just look at what the form is, the external. Prabhupada was a pure substance person, and although some people may say that Prabhupada was also interested in form, but he embodied both substance and form.
And to somebody who looks upon the way that that Prabhupada has become so prominent in in in our society, and it eclipses almost so much of what could be spontaneously inspired and learned and progressively advancing in Krishna consciousness because we've always have to reconcile it, you know, and try to present it in a way that's, you know, that's consistent with the way Prabhupada presented it. I would say a lot of it has to do with the the what is the reason behind it and the motive behind it.
And if the motive is is pure, somebody won't be so disturbed.
If the motive is something there, manipulative. Manipulative, it's gonna come out, it's gonna come out and you and one person can say one thing that that Prabhupada said and it will be so inspirational and some person can say the exact same thing and the person will feel so manipulated.
The same words. The same words. You know, it really depends on on the motivation behind the person who's presenting it. And that's why Prabhupada, I believe he always emphasized substance.
He wanted us to become free from manipulative motivations. He wanted us to become freed from envy. He wanted us to develop all Vaishnava qualities and he taught us by his example how to be perfect Vaishnavas.
By his example, just as much and just as important than from his instructions.
I don't know if I I mean, I didn't give a direct answer to the person who's, you know, he may say that we've too too too much institutionalized Prabhupada. Sounds to me like what what you suggested. And I'm saying, yes.
It's possible, but that some may have too much institutionalized Prabhupada.
And whenever I tell anybody when I'm speaking about Śrīla Prabhupāda's movement, I I always make the a very strong claim that anybody who says ISKCON has has already made a false statement, because ISKCON is so variegated that you can't make a statement what ISKCON is. You can't paint it with one brushstroke.
There's so much variety in ISKCON, and it's healthy. So if somebody is looking for somebody who's not institutionalizing Prabhupada, he'll find it in Prabhupada's movement. Everything is there.
Yeah, I understand what you mean, and I very much agree with you that understanding which he tries to promote, this particular person, is based on a very one-sided and narrow understanding what really is going on in ISKCON, because in reality we can see how some people take this, you know, emphasis on Śrīla Prabhupāda in unhealthy way. There is no doubt about it.
There is some people who are taking it in not a very healthy way. But there is also plenty of people who are taking it in a very proper and healthy and spiritually enhancing way.
So I very much agree with this that you cannot really brush or, you know, paint ISKCON with one statement. And there are so many people who develop very deep relationship with, you know, with scriptures, with Krishna, with our practices and with Śrīla Prabhupāda as well. And not becoming, you know, the blind followers or blind believers, so to speak. You know, the people who are, you know, like it's a common religious phenomenon when people they look for a savior and, you know, he is the sure savior and we just, you know, follow the sure savior and we're safe because we're connected with the savior. It's there, it's a normal thing in any religious organization, but it's not, you know, the only phenomenon which we can see.
There are so many very deep devotees being developed and being inspired by Śrīla Prabhupāda's personality. So I agree with your answer and with your analysis in this regard.
Is there anything you'd like to add beyond that?
Yeah, there is a lot of things which I could add, but I think that the most important thing is is what that, you said, yes, this phenomenon is there. It could be there, the danger is Yes. Yeah. We should not really brush it away, we should not really take it lightly.
There could be an unhealthy sort of, you know, dynamic in the society as well where we become just, you know, some cult.
But it's not necessarily the it doesn't describe the whole situation accurately and it's not I wouldn't say it's even a prevalent thing. I would say it's there, it exists. But I wouldn't say that this is the general tendency which is there. I think this assertion is very much wrong, that there is a very general tendency to take Prabhupada and forget about everything else.
There are so many healthy developments there inspired by Śrīla Prabhupāda and his liberal attitude and his broad mindedness and his attitude towards Krishna consciousness.
And at the same time, as you said, this is the trick. The trick is not to go to one extreme or another extreme. To become too liberal or to become too narrow minded. To combine these two tendencies which are there?
The chastity to Prabhupāda's teachings, Prabhupāda's mood and to his parampara, you know, message. And at the same time brought mind in this.
And, you know, there is definitely, you know, a lot of extremes on the other, on the two sides of the spectrum. So I guess we should find this golden balance. Yeah.
Reconciling Prabhupada's instructions
So let's go to another question. We only have two questions. Actually, question you already answered.
How to deal with seemingly contradictory instructions of Śrīla Prabhupāda? How to avoid misinterpretations of his instructions? How do we understand which instructions we are to follow in a given situation?
Maybe you can add something to what you already said, but you already mentioned couple of times that the seeming contradiction is a result of different circumstances, different personalities to whom Śrīla Prabhupāda speaks and we should understand the principle behind it that you already said.
Yeah, as far as how do we understand which instructions were to follow in a given situation, we've also somewhat addressed that about the importance of taking shelter and and others other Vaishnavas who we have confidence and trust that they've given their lives to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Why couldn't they help me gain a better understanding of an important decision that I have to make in my life?
And, therefore, not simply relying on my own interpretation of Prabhupada's instruction according to time, place, and circumstance.
But if everybody has someone in their lives that they trust and they have faith and who's inspire them as as a true Prabhupādānuga, then why not seek guidance and direction in making an important decision and hear from them also? And if it resonates and and if we can't make the decision ourselves, even if it doesn't fully resonate, but if we follow it anyways faithfully, then Krishna will help it to resonate when the time is right for it to resonate by either helping us to understand it was the best approach to take because we didn't simply make it based upon my own mental you know, impulse, but I took shelter of somebody else and therefore I'll follow their good advice, their sound advice. That's in a way that we certainly can become more resolute in making a decision.
It's interesting what you said. You know, I gave you lecture.
During this hermeneutical course, you know, the hermeneutics was, you know, accepted by the GBC and the whole hermeneutical process was described by the work of a group of scholarly devotees. And I was asked to give some lectures on this topic because that's very much related to this topic of hermeneutics.
How to extract the meaning of what Prabhupāda said, how to reconcile different statement, how to understand what is most important, how to understand the spirit. And you know, I was describing historically why it is now the time to really develop the hermeneutical skill. And hermeneutics is not, it's not only science, it's an art in itself.
And as any art it has something which is, you know, not rationally or logically describable. There is also a kind of intuitive feeling which you have to develop. That's right.
By knowing the, you know, the whole corpus of Śrīla Prabhupāda and his message and kind of connecting with this particular statement with the whole mood of Śrīla Prabhupāda which is sometimes it's not entirely rational. It's partially at least intuitive and, you know, wholesome.
But what I was speaking that, you know, Prabhupāda's time hermeneutical process was very simple. If you didn't understand something, you could just ask Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda, what do you mean?
Why you can write him the letter? Prabhupāda was so diligent and, you know, in answering all the letters which he would receive, so he would answer.
Then when Prabhupāda left, then the hermeneutical process was also simple. More complex, but still simple because behind Prabhupāda there were his followers who very much knew his instructions on a particular topic.
And the authority of these followers of Śrīla Prabhupāda was very much established in the society and impeccable.
Everyone knew that, you know, Tamal Krishna Maharaj knows the most about Prabhupāda's instruction, about the management, for example. Right?
Because he was dealing in this relationship with him and, you know, if you had some doubts you could always ask Tamal Krishna Maharaj, you know.
And everyone knew that Jayadvaita Maharaj was the most trusted editor of Śrīla Prabhupāda. And Jayadvaita Maharaj and his crew, you know, if you had some doubts about certain things, you could ask him.
And, you know, there were some other followers who's like Bhakti Swarupa Damodara Swami was, you know, was the authority on BI and Sridhar Maharaj perhaps and some other people.
Sridhar Maharaj was the authority on 26th 2nd Avenue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, Satsvarupa Maharaj was an authority on Prabhupāda's life and Prabhupāda's biography and details of this.
And you know, there were so many prominent disciples who were trusted by the Society of the Devotees because they knew that they had an intimate relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda and Śrīla Prabhupāda personally trained them in certain areas.
Like, you know, Yamuna, some other people were trained as cooks or, you know, or Bhakticharuma Maharaj were personally trained as cooks and Prabhupada appreciated their cooking.
There were people who were trained in deity worship and this and that.
But what happened after that, you know, the sorority of these people, of these followers of Śrīla Prabhupāda was somewhat shaken or diluted by the criticism offered by some detractors and by some other events which, unfortunate events which happened. And, you know, now people are lost more or less.
And therefore this hermeneutical process, or skill, I wouldn't even say that this is just a, you know, methodical process. It's rather a skill is very important.
And to do this hermeneutical process, to be sure that you are speaking in accordance to Śrīla Prabhupāda, his mood and everything.
You really have to know a lot of Prabhupāda said, but not in a selected way but in a very wholesome way so to speak, in a very, you know, complete way.
And for that you really understand, you have to really understand the essence of it, the core of it, the core teachings.
The most important element of this hermeneutical process is to be trained in the core teachings in the siddhāntas, to establish firmly siddhāntas and to understand how different instructions of Śrīla Prabhupāda are related to this core eternal truths, siddhāntas, which are always there. Then you can understand that this is the instruction according to time, place and circumstance. But this is the instruction which has eternal value.
And then you can judge the relative weight, so to speak, of this instruction and that instruction because this is what is needed to understand.
This instruction is more important than that instruction because this is more particular case and this is more general instruction. Anyways, so that's probably this whole thing.
We started in this Bhaktivedanta University, we started the course but I'm not satisfied with the course.
I think we should really give very elaborate, you know, understanding what does it mean, how to extract the essence of the particular instruction or to understand what is Prabhupāda's mood and how to apply Prabhupāda's mood in a modern situation which we encounter with. Something like this, yeah.
Even the topic of hermeneutics though could be so hard to resolve. Yeah. It's a No. It's an art. It's an art. I completely I I just gotta say, I completely agree with the use of your word. It's an art. You know?
It's a just like there's an art of sadhana. There's an art of bhakti.
There's a you know, there's a it's an art of of hermeneutics, you know, knowing how to accept, what grounds, what basis to accept statements from a from an authority that should be, you know, revered, worshiped, and and and seen as as an absolute authority.
It's so hard. It's so hard to to actually to come to an agreement. And although as much as I hear about, I'd be very interested to hear more about this hermeneutics class that you're going to be giving.
It's essential, but at the same time, I have to be say that I'm wary that it doesn't become too academic. Krishna just doesn't work that way.
Is that this one thing that we have to learn as we make advancement in Krishna consciousness is that Krishna is always free to act as he wishes. He always has his independent will, and he's not going to conform to a set of rules.
Yes. Whatever rules we lay down for him, he's not bound to conform to them. There's only one one only one means to bind him. It's not by rules and regulations.
I guess it's a good way to conclude our dialogue on this topic because what you just said about Krishna is also applicable in relationship to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda is very much alive and you cannot really kill him by putting him into some, you know, that shape which is, you know, which is yeah, and start using him as a tool to exploit others.
As a hammer?
Yeah, Prabhupada is very much alive and we should keep him alive by, you0, praying to him, by speaking about him, by hearing about him and by developing relationship with him and by appreciating how he's alive, how he's spontaneous and how he's liberal and at the same time so strict. Yeah, how he's alive in the hearts of those who love him.
Yeah, yeah. We still have five minutes to go, so I guess we can answer a question from the listeners make our conversation more alive. So I don't know who will give us the questions. Is there anyone there?
I don't see any questions in the chat, but I don't think it was meant put it. So they just turned on the chat and they can't have the questions. Oh, there's a lot of questions in the chat. No, but that's all the questions.
Oh, no. Those are the questions that we were covering. Yeah. All right. Got it. Got it.
Prabhupada's love for simple devotees
Maybe you can say a few words about the last question.
How Prabhupāda was developing relationship with his disciple? What Śrīla Prabhupāda liked in their behavior, mood and actions? Whom among his disciples did he consider to be close and dear?
Whether any simple devotees, quote unquote, simple devotees, who did not perform outstanding service but whom Śrīla Prabhupāda loved very much. Well, the last question, an obvious person is Jayananda Prabhu. Yeah.
Prabhupāda loved Jayananda, you know, and he was not, you know, he was not a big Intellectual.
Fact, the Chayananda, he was the president of San Francisco, and he asked Praupade if he could leave presidency, and and he wanted to become a driver of a bus on Radhoudamadar.
And, you know, he gave up position because he he was just so, you know, unassuming, unpretentious, and he was just and he was always in the background. That was the one thing you always hear about Jayananda Prabhu.
And Prabhupada just Prabhupada just loved him so much that, you know, when he asked if he could be a driver on the bus, he just immediately told him, yes, please go.
You know, he let him drive a bus on Radha Damadar, and he gave up his presidency.
And and the Praupade always talked about Jayananda in terms of how he gave his donation, $5,000 for the printing of his first book and and the things that Prabhupada said about Jayananda when he heard he departed Prabhupada cried, you know, but and he was just he wasn't like a big, he he just wasn't a big splash, you know, no position, and it just, it's just and but Prabhu had so much appreciated him.
So he cried.
And and after Jayananda departed, but he was he wanted to hear everything about what Jayananda Prabhu was doing, you know, the circumstances, departure, and and then he wrote that beautiful letter about Jayananda.
I I say he was a good example of somebody who was not, you know, but he was immortalized. He was so simple without a big position, but he was immortalized by Prahupad because he loved his simplicity.
And Prahupad said that his departure day should be included in Vaishnava calendar. And not only that, but there shouldn't be a Rathi Atri card in the movement without his picture on it.
Every Rathi Atri card, I'm always cautious of that. Every Rathi Atri we ever had, every year, always had a giant underpublished picture on it, always. He immortalized him, Praupad.
Well, that's an example of somebody who is simple, but probably I'd love.
I was told that Jainanda Prabhu was an exceptional case in the sense that while he was giving lectures sometimes he would fall asleep himself while eating the lectures. You see that nobody does it. Put that But
he was always working so hard, he deserved it. So, I mean, that's the first person that came to my mind when I heard that question about Chayananda for whom. You know, but what was the He
also loved much Yamuna who was not also I mean he was Oh yeah, and he also loved Bhakti Shrup Damadara Swami. Yeah. He really loved Bhakti Shrup Damadara Swami. Yeah. Always talking about him.
My scientist, disciple, you know, he would always speak to him in a very, very friendly way. And, yeah, and he will always, yeah, There's certain of course, Bhakti Shrub, Damadas... Well, he was a Brahmachary.
He was a Brahmachary. He wasn't a big leader. He was a Brahmachary scientist, you know. It wasn't like that he was a big managerial leader.
Of course, he was responsible for the Bhakti Vidanti Institute, but I'm sure we could come up with a whole long list of devotees that that Prabhupada loved, who were simple, but these are the first ones that come to my mind and Jumuna also of course definitely.
He loved very much Shyama Sundar Prabhu. Well, Shyama Sundar Prabhu was a big leader but still he was he was loved not because he was a big leader but because he was Loved by proud, also independently, irrespectively.
You know, I just read this description in his book how other devotees decided that Shyama Sundar should not be Shilo Prabhupada's secretary.
And they presented it to Silu Praupat and kind of forced Silu Praupat to reject him as a secretary. And how Shiloh Praupat was, it was very difficult for him. And how he was almost crying actually.
He did agree with them and kind of went their way, but at the same time he gave so much love to Shema Sundar Prabhu and you know, it was a very, you know, touching part.
I'm really I'm really reading volume three of Chasing Minus with Swami right now. Shyamvasotra really comes out with, you know, a lot of things about his lack of qualification and just Paupa's mercy in many places.
Now he's very frank, honest, can very candid, you know, about himself. Yeah. And this is from the third volume. Yes. This story is from the third volume.
Overcoming natural fanaticism
We're already over time, but let me ask you the last question. We will note from Can a person or a devotee blindly follow the process which was given by Śrīla Prabhupāda? In other words, can anyone be broad minded?
There is an inborn, yeah, there is some tendency for being sectarian. It can be the manifestation of undeveloped intelligence.
In other words what she's asking, you know, some people are blind followers because they just lack intelligence. Can anyone develop the broad mindedness and understand the essence? You know, would you be inclined?
Because I really don't fully understand the question and because you read it in Russian, would you be inclined to answer the question? I can, I can?
Basically what she says, she says that some people by nature are fanatical, sectarian, narrow minded and when they join Śrīla Prabhupāda's movement they become fanatical sectarian followers of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
What is the chance for these people? We're talking about being liberal, being broad minded, being this, being that, you know, but some people have natural limitations.
And my answer to these questions would be, yes, there may be some pre existing tendencies in us, but, you know, we're made of the association.
And if we associate with people and if we closely serve these people, then their quality comes to us.
Quality comes to us and we develop similar nature and similar attitude despite of our lack of qualifications or lack of, you know, proper, you know, proper qualities in the beginning.
So, the question is proper association.
If we are in a proper association, then even though the tendency for fanaticism or narrow mindedness is there, it will not manifest, it will not fructify because the association is a very strong force and it influences us more even than inborn tendencies which are there.
You know, even though these tendencies are strong as well, but the association is stronger especially if we keep the proper mood in the association.
If we're not trying to impose our nature, deficient nature upon others, but rather serve others and see how others are doing, we can develop similar nature despite lack of initial lack of qualification.
So that would be my answer to this question.
I would say, the only thing that I would say in addition to that, which you've already said essentially, is that Lord Caitanya has said is, I will personally deliver anyone who chants Hari Krishna and doesn't offend Vaiṣṇavas.
Yeah. Yeah. The crux is not to offend Vaiṣṇavas. And for that you need good association. For that you need association with people who are not offensive or, and not defensive.
Because offenses usually come from defensiveness, from some insecurities. Anyway, thank you very much for your association, for giving two hours, even more of your valuable time.
And I hope that this conversation will help many people to strengthen their relationship with Śrīla Prabhupāda, which will strengthen our movement and will make our movement better. Thank you very much.
Thank you for inviting me. And considering that I'm somebody who's qualified to speak on this topic, it's very magnanimous of you. Again, thank you, thank you so much.
I was enriched by this conversation with you and there is something to think about. Maybe I should write another book about Śrīla Prabhupāda. But actually I was planning to give second volume of the book but
What you should do is you should make sure there's an English version. Yeah, there is a work going on now on English version. I have to check what's going on. That's essential. That's essential. Okay.
So we're going to end here then. Thank you for inviting me and stay in touch. Yeah. Maybe organizers can let everyone unmute and, you know, give some last feedback to us if somebody wants. Just a few words.
Anyway, 154 people are there on Zoom. So it's good. Was this streamed also on YouTube? Yeah, it was streamed on YouTube. And then probably more people are there on YouTube. Okay, thank you.
I guess I guess that's, is that what we, is that why we're staying on?