Meeting with English Speaking Disciples
Bhakti Vijnana Goswami · 2024
Chapters
Namam Vishnu Padaya Krishna Prastaya Bhutales Sri Mati Bhaktivedanta Swami Nami, Namaste Saraswati Devi, Goravani Pracharini, Nirvi Sasunyavadi Paschatades, du bevachapatitunam pavanibhyowaisnevibyo namonamha, djai sri Krishna Chaitanya Prabhunityananda Sya Dvaitagdata Hara Sivasadi gaura bhakta vrinda Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Yantah Pradisha Mamavajamam Prasuktam Sanjivaya Anjamatva Gadim, Prananda, Mau Bhagawate, Purchayatubi, Swastu Vishwasia Calah, Prasse, Dadam, Dyantu Bhutani, Shiwmit.
Science versus religion in Krishna consciousness
I'm very happy to greet all of you uh for this uh uh session. I will speak a few words as an introduction to our association, and then you can ask your questions.
The topic about which I think a lot lately is how the presentation of Krishna consciousness as a science is different from the presentation of Krishna consciousness as a religion.
There is no doubt about it that Krishna consciousness it's practices, it's liturgy, it's you know rituals and everything else has religious conotnations and it can be taken strictly as a religion.
And perhaps it's not wrong, but at the same time Śrīla Prabhupāda was stressing completely different presentation or idea behind Krishna consciousness, saying that this is the science of God.
Of course, you can probably make a case that in any existing religions there is also this aspect where they are trying to understand God from the point of view of truth.
But at the same time, I don't think that any religion claims so strongly that this is science,
that this is not religion. And I think there are many important reasons why Śrīla Prabhupāda was insisting on this understanding of Krishna consciousness. It's a philosophy which gives you a philosophical and
metaphysical framework of understanding how the nature works, how the reality works, not just nature, not just material nature, but how the reality works.
So sometimes Śrīla Prabhupāda called Krishna consciousness as a whole, as science of God. Sometimes he was more specific in this regard and, he was saying that it's sambandha-jñāna is the science of God.
The scientific presentation of reality, what is absolute truth, uh what is uh the nature of consciousness, the absolute consciousness, the consciousness of God, relative consciousness which is the consciousness of living entities.
But whatever approach we adopt, in any case, Śrīla Prabhupāda wanted to stress this point, emphasize this point.
Responsibility in science versus religion
And what we can see with quite alarming tendencies that more and more we are presenting religion as Krishna consciousness as religion.
The main difference between religion and the science is the level of responsibility a practitioner takes upon himself?
When you are a member of religious organizations, you have to take certain responsibilities, you have to pay certain amount, you know, you have to come on Sundays, you have to do some rituals,
but ultimately the result is some miracle which is supposed to happen at the end of your life, or which actually may happen even before that, that you are somehow rather saved.
The trick of religion is that any religion promises that whoever is a member and whoever agrees to follow certain rules, minimum rules of this particular religion is already safe no matter what. He can do horrendous things in his life.
He can you know do some horrible things.
But because he is the member of this religion and because this religion is so powerful and the founder of this religion is so benevolent and merciful, he is saved just by the mere fact that he is a member of this particular denomination.
Whereas science explains how the process of liberation works. Why are we suffering in this world? What is the reason?
What we're supposed to do to free ourselves from suffering, and how everything which we do in Krishna consciousness contributes to the process of liberation, how it ultimately scientifically brings about this salvation.
You know, and therefore Śrīla Prabhupāda didn't even use so much the word salvation because the very word salvation implies that there is some mystical kind of intervention which is supposed to take place.
In the science the role of this mystical intervention is much less.
Focusing on process over end result
Mostly the science is concerned with the practitioners to understand properly how the process works and therefore if we take religion then the emphasis will be on the end result which is salvation.
Whereas if we take science, the emphasis is not so much on the result, the emphasis is on the process. Scientific understanding or approach to spiritual practices will stress again and again and again, please do it properly. The result depends on the process.
The result is of course there is a miraculous element in our understanding as well,
but it's much less because Śrīla Prabhupāda and all our Acharyas they stressed the need for us to execute the process of Krishna consciousness properly. And therefore, if we take the original writings
of our Acharyas, we can see how painstakingly Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, for example, or even Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī explain the process and the main Acharya
of our sampradāya, the founder Acharya, Ādi Acharya of our sampradāya is Rūpa Gosvāmī, who is Abhideya Acharya, he plays such a significant role. Because he explained in all minute
details the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How it works and what we have to do and why we're supposed to do what we're supposed to do.
It's very interesting because in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, while explaining the process of Krishna Consciousness, the 64 different angas of our abhidheya, of the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he gives examples from different Puranas mostly.
He illustrates each and every Anga of devotional service, each and every limb of devotional service by quotations from the Puranas.
But if it is all explained in the Puranas, uh what is the need of writing Bhakti Rasamriti Sindhu if the whole bhakti process is there?
But uh the difference is that yes he takes the uh illustrations and the statements of the Puranas but uh he puts it into the very scientific, rationally understandable framework, and in this way gives the different foundation to the religious of for pura religion of Puranas.
Otherwise, yes, we can treat Krishna consciousness as some sort of or bhakti as the religion based on mostly Puranas, because Puranas is the real foundation, not so much Vedas and Upanishads, but mostly Puranas, is the foundation of our religion.
Historical distortion of scientific devotional service
But again, as I said, no, religion is different, science is different.
And in my humble opinion, the tragic historical events which uh took place uh shortly after Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's disappearance from this world when his philosophy, his scientific understanding of the process of bhakti, his His treatment of bhakti as a scientific category was completely distorted by different Sahajiya movements, what we call now Sahajia, who again
reintroduced into the religion of Lord Chaitanya a lot of unnecessary mysticism and so many other elements which ultimately completely distorted or substituted the whole idea of Lord Chaitanya's movement and bring it down to the level of some mystical or pseudo-mystical cults.
So and there are some other very grave consequences which may not be visible immediately uh when we do this substitution, when we uh start treating Krishna consciousness uh as religion.
Recently I had a conversation with one Indian brahmacārī and he told me very amazing,
amusing uh uh story uh that he approached one temple president uh and suggested uh that he would give a seminar on Harinam Chintamani on the science of chanting, offenseless chanting, which is again described by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura in great details.
And the temple president was extremely against this idea. He said, no, no, there is no need because you will just disturb the faith of our congregation.
So how is it the foundational book of one of our ācāryas can disturb the faith of the congregation if we study it deeply? There is something wrong with this kind of faith which is supposed to be disturbed by studying the book of one of our teachers, one of our gurus.
So, but uh again, as I said, this process is going on already, and it's an alarming tendency to turn Krishna consciousness into some sort of mystical uh cult uh or yeah whatever uh whatever it is.
Attitudes toward sin in organized religion
Yeah, organized religion is another shut uh good term uh for this. Yeah. So uh uh yeah and the there is a lot of implications uh of uh very practical implications uh in the difference of this understanding.
One very practical uh implication is how we uh what is our emotional reaction towards uh what is our understanding of sin?
You know if we take religion, uh religion basically, is usually found on this very strong fear of sin and sinful reactions. With a lot of you know condemnation of sin and you know you will go to hell and you will burn in hell for a long time and you will suffer for a long time.
This is one sort of understanding which is promoted by religion. But then, as a flip side, you know, uh, there is a different side of the same coin. We can see this in the history of religions.
Initially, you know, religious institutions, since Jagadish mentioned about organized religion, they use this tool or this instrument as the instrument of power how to influence people by instilling fear into them.
And you know this is how religions were basically ruling the world, especially I'm talking about the Western history, the history of Western religion.
The religious institutions were extremely powerful without having any instruments of power.
But the main instrument of power which they had in their hands was this fear of the suffering in the next life or in the life after death.
But then what happens again if we look carefully into the history of religion after you know centuries of terrorizing people by this completely denigrating fear of sin.
Usually, the opposite process takes place, and there are some reformation movements, and these reformation movements come and they say, you know, oh, this is all rubbish.
You know, there is no need to fear all the sinful reactions. Our savior is the most merciful savior. No matter what you do, you are already saved by His grace. So from a complete hundred percent fear of
sin, religion sometimes flip- flops, turns around 180 degrees and becomes some sort of salvation movement with indulgence, uh you know you can just indulge whatever you like, do whatever you like, just pay little contribution to the church and everything will be okay. Don't worry.
Your very nice and cool place in heaven is reserved for you.
Scientific approach to rules and regulations
So, but there is a completely different understanding of this particular concept if we treat uh you know religion or Krishna consciousness in our case as the science of God.
We are not trying to manipulate people by instilling fear into them but we're explaining how it works, why certain things are prohibited, and you know there are degrees of you know gravity of uh you know some things which are prohibited.
Some are you know very strictly prohibited because uh they give m very strong uh they affect very strongly our consciousness in a negative way. Some things are less uh important.
Like traditionally, you know when the devotees they give the vow during initiation they say, you know, no intoxication including tea and coffee. That's correct. Tea and coffee are certainly intoxications.
But it's a it's a minor thing. And And you know it's not uh that important and if you you know you're not doomed if you sometimes you know drink a cup of tea, you know.
Or only if you become addicted uh to this thing then uh it definitely is very detrimental for your consciousness and it's it's definitely artificial thing. There is no doubt about it.
I'm not trying to justify that uh you should do it. But uh what I want to say is that it's definitely not the same thing as taking some hard drugs or whatever.
And we have to understand how it works and why this prohibition is there.
Like sometimes also, you know, Śrīla Prabhupāda said that we shouldn't eat onion. But there are couple of historical incidents when he pushed his disciples to eat onions and when they came to some Indian home and the host would give them some
food with onion and Prabhupāda didn't make a big deal out of it and for him it would be much bigger transgression to offend the host by not making a fuss and creating some big noise that you you gave us some food with onion rather than you know eating little onion which is definitely tamasic and which is not good because it brings about brings tamasic energy into our consciousness.
So as I said, you know there is this is again very practical implication of how we are how what is the our attitude towards our practices and rules and prohibitions. Again, please don't misunderstand me.
I am not now trying to advocate that we should be very lax. No, we should be very strict in following all the rules and regulations.
But we also have to understand what is the science behind all this rules and regulations and not just beyond some religious birobots who follow everything but don't understand why they follow what is the point of their following.
Yeah and we all know how the religion with the religious approach tends uh to to turn into uh some very how to say very strict uh and uh not necessarily exploited enterprise but you know turns into some sort of very hurtless uh uh heartless yeah heartless enterprise or institutions.
You just just do it, do it, do it, do it. If you don't do it, you are completely doomed and there is no place for you among the civilized people.
So you know again this is not the ideal of of Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Rūpa Gosvāmī. Mahaprabhu and Rupa Gaswami.
They again and again and again stress the point that whatever we do, we do to facilitate our remembering of Krishna.
And whatever we avoid doing is again to facilitate or to help us to remember Krishna, which is only possible when our heart is soft, when our heart is inclined to do something good to other people.
Again this is a little introduction about this topic. It's a huge topic. There are so many different aspects of this uh particular this two concepts. They are quite different between each other.
I just wanted to touch it because uh this is something which I'm uh thinking about uh nowadays. Okay, so that's that's it. I don't know if it if it resonates with you or not.
Seeking truth instead of passive compliance
Yeah, thank you Guruma Mahar Raj. Uh I think definitely resonates with various letters and ways to see things and what you're saying is really resonating.
And it's very easy to turn into from the seeker of the truth, usually because Krishna consciousness is not yet a traditional religion, although it's uh it's quite advanced uh on this path. Uh mm but because it's not exactly traditional religion yet people who join Krishna consciousness they are mostly seekers of the truth.
They want to f they want to find the truth through this process. but uh what I see uh the people who sincerely were seeking truth uh when they found the truth uh in Krishna consciousness, very quickly
they can be transformed into some religious bio robots who are not seeking the truth uh anymore.
Uh they think that they already found the truth, the truth is already theirs, uh it's uh theirs by definition, and uh yeah, and then they act in a different way.
So this sort of negative transformation sometimes we can see taking place with the devotees and we should definitely try to avoid it as much as possible.
We should be reminded again and again and again that Krishna consciousness is the science of God, signs by which we can find the truth. But Guru Maharaj, what would you suggest practically like how how we can do that?
Because I also see and myself at some point and uh some devotees that uh they they are like kind of entering here with so much inspiration and they're really trying to find God,
but then at some point you know there is like uh there is a society there is a community and then in the community everything is pushing you towards like okay you just have to follow and then see
you know there is definitely an element of social pressure and social pressure is a very strong influence, very strong force in our life, there's no doubt about it.
But it doesn't mean that we have to succumb to this pressure. Yes, the you know the prevailing culture.
You know the when we enter into some society, in any society there is a very strong element of some conscious, subconscious element, collective subconscious.
And in a religious society, sometimes it's called e Gregor or whatever it is,
while joining some religious society, we become, you know, we become influenced by not only conscious things but by all these subconscious ideas which are floating around, which are shared by majority of people.
And because we are, you know, we want to comply with the rules of the society we start you know doing this sometimes not even completely consciously, and we subscribe to those ideas which are not necessarily there in the books, which are not necessarily even spoken.
You know, there are so many things which we subscribe to, even though nowhere Srila Prabhupada Or sometimes he speaks about it but doesn't make a big deal out of it.
But all of a sudden all these points becomes you know the major philosophical points, the foundation points.
So what to do with this social pressure, but it's not only social pressure as I said, because the m yeah social pressure is there but there is much more influence uh in a sense of this uh subconscious collective subconscious uh influence.
And there is only one way to resist to this collective subconscious or to any subconscious ideas is to bring them to the level of consciousness, to be aware of them and to you know to estimate them from the point of from the rational point of view, from the point of view of philosophy.
So on a practical level, it basically means that we should be very careful about studying the scriptures, the original scriptures, the words of our founder and the original scriptures the words of our you know previous ācāryas and you know, maintain the uh level of consciousness which is required by being a member of Krishna Consciousness Society.
You know. It's implied by because we are supposed to be conscious being the member of Krishna consciousness.
So the remedy from this malady, from this disease is only one is to study scripture and of course find the society of devotees the saṅga of devotees which are geared for finding the truth not geared to comply the rules of a particular society or organization, social rules.
Okay, thank you Guru Maharaj for this explanation. Yeah, so we will uh start with the questions now.
Uh basically uh yeah we'll just go in the list so Bhagavan Prabhu I think your question is a good one to to kind of to do the entry because it it speaks about uh yeah what we should uh ask uh
Developing inquisitiveness through thorough questions
i hope my sound is clear and there's no echo. Yeah, you would. Hare Krishna, try my right, and go to seed, no doors to draw up. Thank you for the three more people there with you. Actually it's text for my life.
Oh Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna. That was about the open reputation from some of what So they were happy to join and
uh yeah thank you again for the amazing introduction it really raises some other spots but I will stick to the question I think we're doing this probably.
Um Um I was reading uh actually a book which we were assigned to read last year in the Pramana platform and a point I also mentioned last year in a meeting that um a disciple should be inquisitive.
Otherwise, it it is said, I'm paraphrasing Prabhupada from this small book that Rajavidya, the King of Nareg, where he is saying, um one may have a good spiritual master but if the disciple is not inquisitive then it's kind of uh uh apity for the disciple.
So I was wondering like this inquisitiveness which is based upon always uh especially from you know Bhagavad-gītā tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā prāpya. So this inquisitiveness sometimes I think it's not it's simply not there, not present.
Not in my daily life, and not after hearing an amazing lecture by it by you. And I was wondering why do these uh questions simply don't come up sometimes. Is it's a sign of improper hearing?
That you know that simply these doubts did not did not surface? Or what is the reason for this? It's exactly on the same topic. Yeah. Krishna says pariprashnana. Pariprashna means not just the questions. Question is prashna.
Pari prashna means very thorough methodical questions when we are trying to understand uh the topic to the minutest details. Pari means uh uh three hundred sixty degrees. Uh, that's what, uh, prefix pari means.
So we have to, you know uh again and again and again hammer uh or
ask the questions and um uh the reason is that uh sometimes why the uh questions don't appear because we accepted religious philosophy or whatever the scriptures as dogmas and dogmas you're not supposed to question.
Dogmas you just, you know, you accept dogmas and there's nothing to ask about the dogmas. That's it. You know, in fact, if you ask something about dogmas, you will you will become uh heretical.
So and uh uh oftentimes it is like this we accepted certain dogmas we don't ask uh why it is like this uh because it's uh more tone it's uh it's uh you know bad tone to ask these questions, you know, why?
Because you may betray that you have some internal doubts. And of course, you know, and therefore we we don't ask these questions.
When we are approaching the uh you know the uh science of God, uh science means uh the questions will always pop out in our mind. Uh uh we will question basically everything, why it is. The main question is why.
The main question of science, we try to find uh you know the reasons, the cause and effect relationship. So if it is there, if we don't just blindly accept whatever we hear.
And sometimes you know the presentation of our philosophy is done in such a way that it doesn't really encourage the questions.
You know, somebody is sitting on Vyāsāsana and he's just you know giving one dogma after another dogma.
And you're there and you you you already kind of sense you already receive the message that you know you're not supposed to ask the questions.
You're supposed just to you know just nod your head and say, yes, yes, yes, I am an obedient member of uh Krishna conscious cult
here you know so sometimes it's it's coming from the preacher who is presenting it in a certain way without you inviting people to think deeply to you know ask questions.
So sometimes it's our fault, sometimes it's the fault of somebody who is presenting Krishna consciousness in such a way that it inhibits questions instead of encouraging the questions.
And we just receive the message properly. Yes, yes, yes, sir, yes, yes, yes, I understand, yes.
If you guarantee me the salvation and the end, I will you know I will uh uh um definitely swallow up all this garbage which you're talking about.
I'm sorry for being little for exaggerating a little bit, but uh this is how it sometimes works. Um so we have to think, we have to think. Uh and uh when we think then the questions will appear for sure. So many.
And that's uh that's why in the fourth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, at the end of the fourth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, Krishna he encourages this also.
In fourth chapter, he says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā, and then after that, he says that the knowledge is supposed to free oneself from doubts.
But this freedom of doubts doesn't mean that we hide our doubts. There is a difference between the freedom of doubts and the hidden doubts which we are trying to push down into our heart.
And at the end of this chapter, Krishna says, just take the sword of knowledge and cut out by the sword of knowledge cut uh asunder the hard note of doubts within your heart.
So the knowledge is there uh not to hide the doubts under the covering uh but to uh cut the doubts. Yeah and for that the questions are very important. Okay. Thank you, Guru Maharaj.
So um yeah, so I think we will go next uh with the uh uh I think I should uh you have I think a few questions so that you can also ask them.
Avikishna Maharaj, thank you very much for a wonderful introduction. I'm really resonating with that.
Understanding Mahat-tattva and universal consciousness
Something was also picking about the last days. Um so my question is regarding um universe of consciousness.
So while I was studying Bhagavatam and studying the Mahat element, you know, sometimes it's called cosmic intelligence, Prabhupada mentions in three five twenty-seven, super consciousness, and I believe you also mentioned in the seminar um this point about that the chitta becomes very clear, this universal consciousness emerges. And I'm just trying to understand it more deeply.
What is it exactly? Because also many modern scientists there speak about this quantum field, this Akashic field, so I'm trying to understand it more. Yeah.
It's something like this nobody knows uh exactly because it's very difficult to define things which are not tangible, which you cannot really see. You know as soon as we start talking about uh things which are intangible, uh intangible in the sense that they're not really perceivable uh by our senses it's very difficult to define them.
For example, mind. How do you define the mind? You know everyone speaks mind, mind, mind, but everyone has completely different understanding of what mind is, you know.
What it is, how you define this, even though it's such a simple thing and such a common thing.
So when we're talking about Mahat, uh it's the most subtle element, it's material element, but uh nevertheless uh it's material, uh but it's uh most subtle material element.
And it's yeah you can you can call it information fields. You know there are some people who speak about noosphere, the, you know the information field or information sphere which is there which records everything, so perhaps the most uh the easiest way to uh explain it uh is by analogy.
You know, it's uh it's the field of ideas and the yeah the informational field, whatever you call it.
And when the great people of this world uh you know make some discoveries or do something great, usually uh they do it as far as I can understand by connecting with this field. By having this direct connection and this is the how they call it inspiration or revelation.
Sometimes it just comes from somewhere from above. So because it's the most subtle element of creation. All the grossest elements are stored or are present there in this causal uh sphere uh in non-manifest ways.
So everything which we which we have, all the ideas, all the images, all the forms. They're there in a subtle form in this mahat.
So it's some sort of you know perhaps the most um most familiar analogy would be some sort of a cloud. Like we all have you know this cloud how you call it Google Cloud or iCloud? iCloud. iCloud.
So and in this iCloud you put something there and you store it there.
So there is there is this little iCloud which you created, and there is a big iCloud which is originally there, uh which is capable of storing the information somewhere there in this in this field yes that thank
you for sharing that much actually I that makes a lot of sense um is so
it's not so much that you access because it's such a pure state of consciousness that Paramātmā more, but it's more that it's like the first element operation that has all the elements stored in a subtle way and therefore you have access to all
know Yeah. Yeah.
And the it facilitate when you approach this when when you clear up your heart because sometimes it's called heart, Chitta, which is the um in a micro level is the analogy of Mahatatva is the representation of Mahatattva on the micro level.
So when it's clear, then through this window you can see God. It just becomes transparent and uh and the light the transcendental light uh is not blocked uh by uh by this you know by the dirt on this media.
It becomes transparent media and through this transparent media you can see some high reality, but it's not the higher reality itself. It's just transparent enough to communicate or to give us connection with the higher reality.
Thank you. So so it's basically also the higher intelligence that Bhagavad-gītā speaks about. That is um because it seems like there are two types of intelligence.
Buddhi that's a little bit like the analytical mind or rational mind. And then Mahat, like the spiritual higher intelligence that is able to kind of zoom out and observe the ahaṅkāra. Yeah.
Yeah, and there is some confusion in this regard because in, um, Sāṅkhya philosophy, they don't make distinction when they speak about Buddhi they speak about Mahat actually.
But we we in Bhagwata Sankhya in Kampila Sankhya, there is a distinction between Buddhi, which is a Rajasic element, and Mahat, which is very highly satvik element by nature.
But sometimes Mahat is also called Buddhi and that's uh where confusion is caused. Sometimes Mahat is called universal intelligence or you know.
So we we should not mix it with our operational conscious mind by which we make the decisions. That's that's Buddhi uh and there is Mahat which is higher element. Thank you very much, March.
Maybe the last question, how can we make sure that this information we receive is actually digested by our higher intelligence and not just by our analytical mind that is just processing information.
For that uh for that the process of purification is there we can only uh We can only be sure that the information we received is coming from the higher forces or from the higher levels.
If our consciousness is clear and transparent,
you know, and therefore we are not stressing so much receiving this information, we are stressing so much something which is depending on us, the process of purification of the heart.
And then if the heart is pure, then naturally whatever we receive by this pure heart will be authentic.
And sometimes people are in a hurry, they are they just want to get you know the real revelation very quickly but you know and and therefore they get into all kinds of channeling and everything else and get some dubious information and uh uh try to present it as something authentic but uh first there should be very thorough process of purification of the heart.
Then only we can be sure that whatever we receive is of the highest quality. Thank you much. Very very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So um next is Tadas. Uh Tadas. Yeah, true. Hare Krishna.
Hare Krishna, Guru Maharaj. Hare Krishna Tadas.
Um yeah, actually I'm I'm very happy uh for for for your introduction which you which you uh uh said uh because actually before before starting uh bhakti yoga I was into anthropotheosophy uh which is some yeah some I don't know how even how to describe it but they very uh they are based you know on the on study of agregors.
No and uh one of the main figures here in the INIA is uh the person who was uh yeah in in in in uh in in Iskor and then he left uh how he says he escaped the agregor you know and uh and now he is um spreading the knowledge
of uh and um actually the difficulty for
me was because I was kinda entering, you know, into into what yoga and I was asking everyone, you know, how they can explain, you know, the what is the agregore, you know, from the point of of view uh of Vedas and of bhakti and actually I have never received uh any answer solid
answer and this is still you know uh how to say this is still somewhere you know in in in in the in my subconscious and I I cannot uh how to say I cannot crack the code you know of this uh of this thing uh and sometimes I doubt no if I you know if I actually you know like uh in in uh in in in on the real path or I'm just you you know know uh in some kind of egregore, you know, taken as a slave, you know, as they describe it. So what I wanted to say, I just I just you know hope that uh maybe sometime
in the future this introduction which you said you know maybe it it it will become some kind you know of of maybe seminar or something where where where it would it would be possible to hear m more deeply you know about uh egregores and you know collective uh uh subconsciousness.
Clarifying initiation vows and institutional loyalty
Um yeah so and so regarding the uh regarding my question so my question uh uh is um is about uh actually the initiation and about the vows uh which which uh uh which we have to take uh during the the um the initiation and not about the vow itself but that the additional ones which were added to the original four ones.
Uh because for for me it was uh yeah it's some somehow I I do not understand that um and uh my not capability to understand that
is based you know the story of uh Narada Muni and uh Hunter uh which was like sadistic sadistic uh person who who took joy you know in in not killing fully animals and then he was asked just to chant Mara, not even the Rāma and but fully purification without any additional, you know, um vows or additional, you know, like uh things to do and and and we, you know, I I think we are not that sadistic I hope. I don't know.
But you know, for us to take a similar process, you know we uh you know we have to take so many No, no. No, please understand properly.
These additional vows are completely optional. They are not at all a part of initiation process. They are just the ideas for you to contemplate, and if you want to commit yourself to certain things, it's up to you.
They're not a part of initiation process. Some elements of them are quite institutional and um uh it's okay because we we have to be grateful to the institution. You know, without the institution where would we be?
You know, I'm I'm not preaching here the anti institutional philosophy. I'm I'm very loyal to ISKCON as an institution and I think it's a great institution with all its faults. But at the same time, you know that they
the institution is institution, it has an important role, but it uh it should not overshadow our spiritual quest and shouldn't even substitute our spiritual quest or mingle with it.
So these vows are just some optional things which you can think about and if you like something or if you feel very strongly about something you can give an additional vow. But you know the the science behind the
vow is that if you really are deeply convinced about the vow and you give the vow uh in the you know in front of uh people who are meaningful to you then Krishna will help you to follow the vow.
Krishna will give you the strength to do it. You will get the additional inspiration to do it. But it's up to you, and it's it's not an uh compulsory part of the initiation process.
The main part is just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and uh follow principles which will help you to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa properly.
I do not rem I do not remember all of them, but I know that one of these was you know uh that you allowed not to participate in any like in in uh investment No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
No, that's a that's a completely different thing, altogether. Additional vows, I can tell what it uh what it is all about, but uh you know it's uh uh it's it's a mistranslation.
The original vow which was during the part of Śrīla Prabhupāda was no gambling. Then gambling has two different connotations. The English word gambling. Gambling may mean you gamble into the stock market and
and gamble also means that you go to a casino and you gamble there. And basically when Prabhupāda was saying no gambling, he definitely didn't mean so much the stock market uh operations.
He meant going to a casino and trying to get some you know extra money by exploiting this process.
So, but then when it was translated into Russian, they added uh n they they translated it uh uh they added this uh uh financial machinations or something like this into it. Which has nothing to do with the original vow.
It's a total mistranslation and I always joke at it not always but you know it's already a tradition and I don't even fight with it. It's it's a total of mistake. It has nothing to do with the additional vows.
It's it's just the result of uh translating it into Russian incorrectly. So that's it. Additional vows which were there they were supposedly recommended by the GBC one is to loyalty to one's guru
which is implied which is not necessary. Another one is the loyalty to sampradaya.
The philosophy of sampradaya, Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya as presented by Śrīla Prabhupāda, basically loyalty to Śrīla Prabhupāda and his way of presenting the philosophy.
Because in some points Śrīla Prabhupāda's presentation is different from presentations of some other great representative of our sampradaya. So there were concerns and there were so many speculations, you know.
They have the tendency to find the contradictions and blow them out of proportions. And because of this tendency, so many people started saying, you know, some people were saying
everyone else is wrong, only Śrīla Prabhupāda is right. Other people were saying Śrīla Prabhupāda is wrong. Actually they are wrong. Śrīla Prabhupāda is not wrong. Other people are not wrong.
But they are wrong by blowing all these contradictions out of proportions. And therefore, the second additional vow is loyalty to the presentation of our philosophy by Śrīla Prabhupāda.
And the third additional recommendation vow is the loyalty to the institution as such with its, you know presentations which is not at all necessary.
Only if you really feel strongly that you want to be the part of this institution and dedicate your life to improve the institution. Because it's easy to criticize the institution.
Only lazy people don't criticize institutions. But it's much more difficult to remain loyal to the institution, remain grateful to the institution and try to improve the institution by contributing there.
So these are the three additional vows, but they're totally optional. And regarding financial machinations, you know, this is this is not at all a part of the process.
Thank you very much for your question. I have second one if nobody asks. No no no we have we have it just so uh PX number Where are you? You are back? From Chardam. Yeah. Okay. So you're waiting for your hitting classic.
Deep study versus superficial exam completion
Maharaj I have two questions. Uh uh regarding uh the topic is uh this just so what I uh like uh not many are interested to learn in a uh scientific way Maharaj. So uh uh and and then uh pr uh like what happens is like most
of them they just give that okay, you chant, you'll be free from this, you chant, uh you'll be happy.
So this is what is uh what is promoted and we see the result also like say so many people are uh chanting and they're getting benefited. That is there is a process.
No, I'll do I'll try to be very no say you have to work hard, this is how you have to reach task tha, you have to develop task, and you go very systematically and I see that not much result comes.
But somebody who makes them think, okay, no, seven days bhagatha and no, this this is a process with giant and no Christmas protecting so nice, this process nice.
So the way they are present it it's so scientific. Uh you get more results, and you have hundreds of people who are attending and caring and some motivational something. So now uh is it not benefiting them?
You know, I'm just going twenty typical day I have entered the funders of the It's definitely beneficial for them. There's no doubt about it. And therefore we should find a balance. I think it's okay in the beginning.
Uh and there is nothing I mean and if the person wants to remain on this level, that's also fine. It's up to him. It's his free choice.
But at least he should also, or at least those who want, they should have an opportunity to go deeper.
You know if we only cater the needs of those people who really want to join the religion and to follow you know all the rules in exchange of being safe to the end uh that's wrong uh these people will be there uh But
you know we should also kater the interest of other people if we only stress this kind of approach and encourage this kind of approach.
We should not discourage it because we should encourage everyone. There's no doubt about it.
We should encourage everyone in their attempts, whatever they are, however feeble they are, so that's fine but we should specifically encourage those people who want to go deeper and facilitate their journey into Krishna consciousness.
So we should not offend other people, we should encourage them. As Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita in the third chapter, na buddhi-bhedam janayet, we should not split their intelligence.
We should not create unnecessary doubts in their minds. Yes, they want to follow this, they're ready for this, this is their ruchi, fine. But uh if we only do this, that's wrong.
And as much as possible we should encourage the other approach. Yes, there will be fewer people, yes, there will be fewer results from external point of view, but in reality results which will be much more impressive.
And there are so many, you know, most of the devotees still they join because they want to find the truth, not because they want to find some some sort of you know institutionalized practice
which is approved by higher authorities and supposedly guarantees some miraculous result at the end.
They are doing pascat-buddhi also. But at the end, their understanding is, we have done also. We have done the shastra, yeah.
And therefore, I'm not a big fan of the courses, Bhakti-vaibhava courses and Bhakti-shastri courses, which are... I gave them myself. But I'm not a big fan of them, at least at this moment of my you know understanding.
I think they are giving something good. There are definitely positive results in taking these courses, but they also, you know, there is some implicit message in these courses that yes, you are done, exactly as you said.
I'm done. You know how you can finish Bhagavad Gita? You cannot finish Bhagavad Gita. You know Srila Vyasadeva is still reading Bhagavad Gita in his Badarikashrama every day and he's not done with Bhagavad Gita.
So they're giving a wrong understanding that, you know, yes, I pass Bhakti Shastri exam, it means I know Bhagavad Gita. You don't know Bhagavad Gita. You don't know Bhagavad Gita.
Bhagavad Gita, you cannot finish Bhagavad Gita. What to speak about Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam? You can finish Bhagavatam. So this message which is there, uh come to us and you will know everything, that's wrong.
And the methodology which is given.
Like recently, uh yeah, uh I was giving one uh Zoom inter some Zoom session uh about Bhagavad Gita, uh studying Bhagavad Gita, and somebody asked me: what is the significance of knowing all the signs of victory which are implicitly listed in the first chapter of Bhagavad Gita.
And immediately I couldn't understand where this question is coming from? It's coming from this sort of you know Bhakti Shastri courses or Bhagavad Gita courses where you have to you know memorize
how many signs of victory are there?
You know Bhīṣma blowing his conch, the Dānavas are blowing their conch, and Kṛṣṇa is blowing his conch, and the conch conchs of Pāṇḍavas have names and conchs of Bhīṣma and Kauravas don't have names. So it's fine.
It's a very beautiful vicāra of some commentator who was finding this sign of victory. But what it what it becomes when we study the Bhakti-śāstrī course, it becomes a very you know dry uh theoretical knowledge.
You have to memorize all this stuff and the science of victory. For what you have to memorize? You know, it's uh in reality, what it is, uh it is the tips for your meditation.
You meditate on the first chapter of Bhagavad Gita. You meditate on the scene and you try to enter the scene by meditating on the verses of Bhagavad Gita and you experience some feelings. You know, yes, yes.
The whole thing is about this, that ultimately Krishna is there and the victory will be on Arjuna's side. But it becomes, you know, some dry sort of thing. You know, you have to memorize all the signs of victory. For what?
For what you have to memorize about it? To pass the exam. For what you should pass the exam? I don't know. You know. It completely changes the whole idea.
You know the study of the scriptures is the is the facilitation to meditate on the content. And in the process of meditating in the content, you will get the questions and you will get some beautiful realisations as well.
And you can you can verify this realisations with the more knowledgeable person who is giving this, but instead it becomes just formality. Just tick exercise. You put the tick there, you know.
First chapter of Bhagavad-gītā is done you know I I I passed the exam I know all the signs of victory never again. Thank you for your many questions.
Now I see that they connected uh when I am doing study study I think okay I'm connected to Maharaj and uh there is wh whenever I'm doing service there is a there is a feeling that I'm connected to my service.
No but now uh I have some people who are guiding and the uh some of them they are going to take any session.
Now they are dressed, they are housed by how can they feel that connection because what is the service they can do for you and how they they should feel the connection to the spiritual master very strongly and they how they see that it is perhaps it's pleasure I'm doing and because without that ego they'll not be able to make the proof it so unless they have that equal that I'm serving.
Serving the guru through eager listening
So how to develop this strong. Yeah, when I see there is a beautiful Sanskrit construct sushaha literally it means the one who is desiring to hear. But in reality it means the one who is eager to follow.
So the idea behind this, the implication behind this is that when you hear, when you hear eagerly, then you should develop the desire to follow what is being said, not just here. And this is the service.
The service is when we hear eagerly and not only hear eagerly but then implement it into our life into our practice. When we hear and then follow that's the service. That's that's sevā. Uh yeah and and therefore service
is called upasana when we follow what is being said uh by Guru, then we feel that we become close to him. And therefore it's called upasana. Upasana means sitting close.
This process of following conscious flowing when we are trying to do what our spiritual master wants us to do, or how he wants us to do, the way he wants us to do, the mood in which he wants us to do, then we become close naturally to him.
And this closeness is there. You know, some people they mmm Śrīla Prabhupāda didn't have so much personal association or personal service to Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. But who will say that he was not close to him?
Śrīla Prabhupāda himself said that I always feel that he is behind my back watching what I am doing. Because he wanted to fulfill his desire, Śrīla Prabhupāda wanted to fulfill the desire of his spiritual master,
and that made him so close and so intimately connected with his... Just uh... Pushi is next, and uh how much more time do you have? But two... whatever, whatever.
So, just uh a little, a little also... uh... question on what you have just... So, is it... is it right to think that uh when... uh I listen to a guru and then I... I try to hear what she says, but I also try to understand the uh guru better? But at the same time what I feel sometimes in my life, maybe I'm not able to articulate exactly like you can articulate something, but somehow it gets into my heart.
Like I... everything that I look at life I... I look through this uh like out... out of loop that you are talking, Śīla, it's... it's a... it doesn't matter, you know, it's a personal style.
Śrīla Prabhupāda is speaking in a completely different style than Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. He was not even trying to imitate Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī's style because there's no need. It's imitation.
But he imbibed the mood and then he speaks in his own way. There is no need to articulate it in the same way.
Everyone has a different personality and different style, different way of thinking, but we should digest it or ingest it uh and then you know manifest it according to our uh yeah style. Yeah, thank you, Brahma-rāja.
So uh, Khushi has got uh a few questions, so Khushi, can you uh please ask? Well make sure you unmute yourself, huh? Hare Krishna, Gururāja, Mahārāja.
Um thank you so much for the introductory lecture and it just made me really feel uh so grateful for the Pranama Mantra platform where you really helped um take me to find that understanding of like uh Krishna consciousness being the science of God and just explaining why we do things from a physical, mental and spiritual perspective as well because I think when I first started there was a lot of um I guess resistance to following certain things even though I would.
Um but after I started understanding this through all those lectures I feel like now when I follow it's more like this is good for me and I I want to so um yeah thank you so much for that.
Um so yeah one of my questions was um when we trying to like achieve something in our you know material or spiritual life and it's just not happening, there's and these are two ways
Applying intelligence and discrimination when surrendering
that we can go about it, which one is like we just keep carrying on and sometimes it can feel like, you know, banging your head against a wall and then the other approach is we just kind of surrender and say, Oh well, this is not meant for me and maybe Krishna has a different desire for me and so in some sense that's almost like surrendering but
I guess that also conflicts with what I've been thinking recently where like in the Bhagavad-gītā, you know, Krishna tells Arjuna to fight. So you, know, do we keep fighting and then sometimes in trying surrendering it
So you, know, do we keep fighting and then sometimes in trying surrendering it should also make us complacent. So I guess when we're faced with these kind of situations in life, like how do we know which works to take?
For that we need an intelligence. Surrendering uh means using the intelligence properly, not turning off the intelligence. Uh and uh yeah, sometimes we
should really, you know, fight and struggle to achieve certain things and sometimes we should not. And it really depends on the thing which we are trying to achieve and so many other factors.
How to determine which way which course to take in a particular situation, you need somebody who is a little more detached and knowledgeable, who can give you an advice without interfering with your responsibility.
You're still responsible for the action which you take. And yeah, sometimes he or she can say, you know, there is no point of struggling too much.
Or sometimes he or she will say no no, uh this is the you know very important for you and uh you have to really you know hammer this point and you you have to really, you know, try to achieve this thing.
It's it's a very uh you know that that's the intelligence.
The intelligence is the ability to discriminate where you have to surrender or you know let it go let it be as it is, uh and and this, you know, discriminate between uh these situations and the situations where you have to really pursue and push it through um by all means.
You know if if you don't have the discrimination then the tendency will be depending on your personality following either one way or another way.
You know, if you are a little weak and, you know, you pretend to be too much religious, then you will just say, okay, Krishna doesn't want. You know, and it's uh in in many cases it will be just laziness. If you're very stubborn and you know have a strong will, you will just, you know, try to break the wall by your head uh stubbornly and it's also not good.
So intelligence is to discriminate between uh this sort of situations.
And if you feel that it's very difficult for you to determine, then there's somebody else who can be approached and can give you some advice whether you should pursue it or should let it go.
And sometimes you know astrology helps in this regard, but again depending on the on the level of astrologers, not all astrologers are equally good and not all their advices should be taken literally.
But you know, and Gurus, how can we build that intelligence so that it can overcome the mind as well um in all situations. Well it's a question of training the intelligence.
The whole sadhana process and the whole Vedic culture is to train the intelligence. Like the intelligence is the ability to discriminate.
You know, until monkeys jumping over the tree and, and, and showering some mercy upon me. I I mean it's uh just rain water, not anything else.
So you developed the ability to discriminate by first hearing about things, you know that's the beginning. It's the standard process.
If you you know if you want to learn how to discriminate things, then first you have to hear.
You know, this is the situation, that is the situation, you know, and this situation Ambarish Maharaj was you know completely complacent and he was standing there without doing anything. In that situation, Prahlāda Mahārāja was fighting, you know, and struggling. And you know, that's what that's what it is.
We hear different stories, different life stories, and how people behaved in different situations.
We hear the story of Srila Prabhupada's life: how he was struggling a lot, how he was coming to the office of Scindia Steam Navigation and asking when is the next steamship going out of America back and never taking this opportunity, you know, to fulfill the desire of his spiritual master.
And how in some cases, when his business was destroyed, how he just said, you know, okay, I surrender. Uh, Krishna doesn't want me to do it, so it's probably time for me to renounce.
So first we hear, and then we try to apply it in our life and see what works what not and then we also develop the intelligence by association.
Association is also a very important way to develop the intelligence because in close association with somebody when we watch how he or she behaves we also learn a lot.
You know we kind of feel how to act in this situation or that situation. So here follow, associate and uh and yeah and also preach. When you preach it also helps.
Thank you so much for my I have other questions but I'm sure there's many other people. So thank you so much for your guidance. As you see it's getting dark here, so we can we can have few questions but not too many. Yeah.
I think uh next one is uh from Paul because he sent it also beforehand and then uh Matthew uh uh not about Yeah,
Presenting the holy name without sensationalism
so Paul, if you can uh ask now. Krishna Maharaj, please my obeisance. Great to see you. And uh my salute to Mount St. Krishna for film Say it again, what? I didn't hear my salute to non-sankishina for filming you so nicely.
Um my uh question is uh maybe a little silly but it's very practical and I I I got I get paste with it uh often. And it's uh a couple of lectures ago it was said that we should not advertise um the little benefits of chanting in the holy name. We sh we should not say that it brings peace or it reaches happiness or anything like that to other people.
What would you recommend to tell someone if someone is asking, Hey, what you're doing there with that bag to get them interested in trying it out and not to downplay the the holy name.
I probably didn't mean that we should not say about the benefits of the chanting. We should speak about the benefits of the chanting.
But in a very realistic and proper way, as Prabhupada was explaining, he was saying, you know, that this is the natural tendency of the living entity to be connected with the higher power and how you can be connected with the higher power by pronouncing the name of God which is no different from God Himself.
So you can speak so many things especially if you realize them yourself because the realized knowledge is always better than just theoretical knowledge.
So what I probably meant is that you should not do this sort of cheap advertisement which is usually false or exaggerate because you
know there is this ninth offense to the Holy Name that you should not preach the glory of the Holy Name to the those who don't have faith.
It it doesn't mean that we should not preach it basically means that we should instill the real faith into the hearts of the people instead of you know going around and giving some cheap advertisement by you know manipulating people into chanting.
You know we should encourage them to chant by explaining them the science behind it uh m but we should not just you know try to by hook and by crook uh make them you know uh some sort of you know get them into some parrot repetition.
So if someone if I would spell someone and bring it to me, so you bring it up. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine.
Yeah, it's a meditation which brings peace and you can explain deeper, you know, depending on the level of the person how much he can uh understand that's fine that's fine thank you very good yeah
and uh but uh raising the hand Hi. Thank you so much Maharaj for your uh it was uh very helpful. Uh it was a topic that I was thinking about for a long time.
True initiation through sincere internal surrender
Uh so I'm asking a question which is very relatable to it. Maharaj many times we have heard like you know when we take Diksha all the sinful reactions go away. That's what we have heard.
But then we don't see at least in my perception, I haven't seen very drastic or even I would say palpable change in the character or of a person.
Whereas when I give us see I am coming from Pune, so I see when we go through systematic training, uh we see much more palpable change in people's character. So my question is what are we missing here?
Is that that when we take Diksha uh the level of surrender of the disciple matters a lot as well as the purity of the spiritual master?
That's what makes uh is uh all I I don't fully understand it much. You can little bit elaborate on this. Yeah. In real you know, it's uh uh it very much depends on the proper definition of the words.
You know there is diksha process which we have, and you know people follow some process, some formality of this process.
Without sometimes understanding deeply what is behind this process. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu himself explains that Diksha means Atma Samarpan. You completely surrender yourself. And this spirit of complete surrender definitely frees
oneself from sinful reactions because it it basically eradicates the sinful reactions and sinful tendencies in people. It's very purifying, the spirit of surrender, spirit of you know saranagati.
Like we can see this Mrigari the hunter you know he took dīkṣā from Nārada Muni. And because of the sincerity of this, you know of this process of his initial impetus, he was immediately free from all these tendencies.
Immediately free.
But you know now what is going on in this convey just you know more or less follow certain formalities yes somebody somebody fusss for half a day and then he says you know I I don't eat meat because I anyway don't like it so and you know and then I will try to chant something.
There is no this you know sincere sh uh surrender uh behind it. So it's not necessarily completely purifies you from all these sinful tendencies and reactions.
In the process of doing it, and we we have to understand that dīkṣā is the process is just uh the ceremony of initiation is just a part of the dīkṣā process.
And dīkṣā process can be uh quite you know prolonged time, can take some time. Thank you so much, Mark. Maharaja, does that mean that it actually it's surrender which does the uh burning of the sinful reaction and nothing?
Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Surrender, surrender and determination to follow the process, yes.
Maharaja, you also mentioned last time when I had asked you that uh only at the stage of niṣṭhā can we put this surrender before that it's more like uh some showing śraddhā-samarpitā?
Yeah, and there how do we understand that and therefore the process of the process of dīkṣā uh is actually all these stages from initial śraddhā till niṣṭhā it's the process of dīkṣā.
Dīkṣā is more or less completed uh This process of dīkṣā, the planting of the seed within the heart of a disciple, is completed when he reaches the stage of niṣṭhā. So śikṣā is also part of the dīkṣā process.
Oh yeah, definitely. Śikṣā is the vital part of dīkṣā process, yes. Thank you, Maharaja. So so what you're doing in Pune systematic training is a part of Diksha. It's a diksha.
Mahaja, uh just one more uh question uh this is related to uh last time we had asked about um uh somebody has asked me that like when we reach our through the sadhana process and uh is it possible to come to
the state of um a natural uh vraja-bhakti through the Padma process uh that has been given to us by Srila Prabhupada, or is it uh or
Developing Vraja-bhakti through proper mood
do we have to in between take a route of uh rāga-ānuga bhakti uh to go to that kind of uh uh that kind of uh spontaneous ruchi of vraja-bhāva. Um I I don't know uh what what what is the uh how
do we understand this right Śrīla Prabhupāda said that he gave everything in his books as well, and he explains in his books the process of you know rāgānuga sādhana. And in fact, meditating on such books as
Caitanya-caritāmṛta is actually also a process of rāgānuga sādhana in one sense because you are meditating on the mood of Caitanya Mahāprabhu who is manifesting the mood of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī.
You are meditating on the mood of the eternal associates of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. While studying the books of Śrīla Prabhupāda we're also meditating on his mood which is also the mood of vraja-bhakti
but then you know this gradual development, because you know what is vraja-bhakti? Vraja-bhakti is the certain mood, you know, the mechanics of the sādhana is the same. You know, you you chant the same mantra, you you basically do the same, you you do some you know archana uh puja but the internal mood is different.
So the vraja-bhakti is awakening by associating with people who have the mood, how about this association can be you know by meditating on them as well, knowing you know we
should meditate on the mood of Śrīla Prabhupāda, meditate on Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mood and mood of his associates and then see uh and associate with people who have similar mood and who, you know, who manifest this mood in their practice of Krishna consciousness.
So, but the technique is the same, sadhana is the same, it's just the mood in which we are doing it is different. Thank you, Mahārāja. Thank you so much for making that see like the time for this.