Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.13.10
Bhakti Vijnana Goswami · USA · 2004
Chapters
Reading text on material sense enjoyment
We are reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5, chapter 13, Rāhugaṇa converses with Jaḍa Bhaṭṭācārya, text number 10.
Karhi Smachit Kudra Rasanvichin Vamsin Bams, Dan Makshi Pabiryat hito bimanaham, Tatradi krichrat pratilabdamano, Tatradi Krichrabdamanu, Balatvi Lumpan Tatam Tatolie, Karhismachit, Karhismachit, sometimes very insignificant, very significant Rasana Sexual Enjoyment Vichinvan Searching for Tata of those women Makshika beeshikab by honeybees or the husbands of family members.
Vyatitaha Titaha very much agree. Very much agree. Vimanaha. Vimana. Insulted. Tatra. Tatra. In death. Ati. Very much with difficulty because of spending money. Because of spending money.
Pratilab dhamanaha. Obtaining sexual enjoyment. Bala by force. By force. Dilampanti. Kidnapped. Thereafter. Thereafter. Tam the object of sense enjoyment. The object of sense enjoyment. The woman. From him. Another dacoit.
Translation. Sometimes, in order to have a little insignificance, sense enjoyment. One searches after debauched women. In this attempt, one is insulted and chastised by the women's kinsmen.
This is like going to take honey from the beehive and being attacked by the bees. Sometimes after spending lots of money, one may acquire another woman for some extra sense enjoyment.
Unfortunately, the object of sense enjoyment, the woman, is taken away or kidnapped by another devotee. In the great forest, honeycombs are very important. People often go to collect honey from the combs, and sometimes the bees attack and punish them.
In human society, those who are not Krishna conscious, remain in the forest of material life simply for the honey of sex life. Such debauches are not at all satisfied with one wife. They want many women.
Day after day, with great difficulty they try to secure such women and sometimes while trying to taste this kind of honey, one is attacked by women's kinsmen and chastised very heavily.
By bribing others, one may secure another woman for enjoyment, yet another devotee may kidnap her or offer her something better. This woman hunting is going on in the forest of material world sometimes legally and sometimes illegally.
Consequently in this Krishna consciousness movement, the devotees are forbidden to have illicit sex. Thus they avoid so many difficulties. One should remain satisfied with one woman, being duly married.
One can satisfy one's lusty desires with his wife without creating disturbances in society and being punished for doing so. Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Karhi Smachit Kudra Rasanvichin Vams tan makshipabir yatito vimanaha. Tatrapi krichrat pradilabdamanu balatvilompat patatam tatuny.
Sometimes in order to have little insignificant sense enjoyment one searches after debauched woman and in this attempt, one is insulted and chastised by the women's kinsmen.
This is like going to take honey from the beehive and being attacked by the bees. Sometimes after spending lots of money, one may acquire another woman for some extra sense enjoyment.
Undoubtedly, the object of sense enjoyment, the woman, is taken away or kidnapped.
Chasing insignificant honey in material life
Unfortunately, the object of sense enjoyment, the woman, is taken away or kidnapped by another devotee. So Prabhupāda explains that in a forest of material enjoyment the honeycombs are very important.
There's so many other things are there, crickets and owls and jackals and tigers. But the honeycombs is what we're searching for in this forest of material enjoyment.
And even though, as it is said, kṣudra-rasān, the rasa or enjoyment which we get is kṣudra. Kṣudra means insignificant, tiny, truthful. Still, we want it.
Still, everyone is after it, and everyone is searching for it very diligently by wandering in this forest of material enjoyment.
Prahlāda Mahārāja says the same thing, yan gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kanduya nene karayor rivaduka dukkam. It brings unhappiness. Everyone knows this. Ultimately, everyone knows this.
That so many bad consequences of this illicit sex connection are there. But still, Yangrihamedi's sukkam, he too chim. Everyone is after this sukkam.
Even though it's small, it's so tiny, but still everyone is searching for it. And nobody wants to give it up. Nobody.
It is also said in the seventh canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that everyone is chained in this world by this maithunya agaram, by the chains of Maithunya, this desire for sex.
And this desire is so strong that even saintly persons by trying to follow this path, they cannot do it. Because this desire is so strong, it always drags us down.
I recently got a letter from somebody, and this somebody is very angry. Ultimately he's angry at Krishna. Because no matter who you're angry at, but ultimately you're angry at Krishna.
So this one is writing to me an angry letter, and he said, you know, I'm trying to follow this spiritual path. I'm trying to chant. And still I'm falling down again and again and again. Why Krishna is doing this to me?
Why he doesn't let me go? Why this sexual enjoyment is so strong that I have to fall down again and again and again? He says, you know, look, I'm sincere. Otherwise, why would I read Śrīla Prabhupāda's books? Right?
I sincerely want to get rid of it.
But the problem is that even though we may want to get rid of it, at the same time we don't know how deep this desire to enjoy is there in the heart. And at the same time, even though we want to get rid of it, the other side of our consciousness doesn't really want it. We don't really want it.
We are so attached to this. Like this Saint Augustine in his confession, he writes that when I was young, I was so lusty, I was extremely lusty, and I was praying to
God: oh my Lord, please help me to be free from lusty desire. But not now. You know, you free me from lusty desire. But you know, little later.
Because everyone, even though they know it's bad. They know it's troublesome. They know it's such a heavy burden on everyone's consciousness. Still nobody wants to let it go.
And everyone is kind of you know playing with this. Yes, yes, yes, Krishna. Please free me from this. But a little later, you know, when I'm 90 years old, then you may do this.
But before that, let me give some room for sense enjoyment. Because this is honey. The honey is sweet.
And everyone wants this sweetness, this rasa. Actually, we are all after spiritual rasa or ādi rasa, this initial sexual enjoyment with the Lord, initial love with the Lord.
But because it's perverted and because it's so strong, therefore it's so strong here. Even in a perverted form, even when it's so insignificant, still everyone is attached for this.
Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gītā, it's very interesting when he explains in the seventh chapter of Bhagavad-gītā how he manifests. He starts how he is the essence of everything in this world.
He starts with saying, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya, I am rasa. And he says, I am rasa in I'm the taste in the water. But ultimately he is rasa.
You know, raso vai saḥ, Taittirīya Upaniṣad says that he is rasa. The ultimate truth, the absolute truth is rasa. And he starts explaining that this is the essence. The essence of life starts with rasa.
Everyone is after rasa. Everyone is after taste, is after enjoyment. But then at the end, when he finishes this description, he starts with this statement Rasuham Absu kauntaya.
But then at the end he says, Balam Balavatam Chaham. I am the strength of those who are capable of uh renouncing this, you know, raga and what? Ragivh. Kama Ragha Vivarjita. Yeah, Kama Raga Vivarjitam.
I am the strength of those who are capable of renouncing this kama. Kama and rag. Kama which is coming from the mod of passion and raga which is coming from the mode of ignorance. I'm the strength.
Because without me, without having the divine intervention, nobody is able to give it up. Because this taste is too strong.
Allegory of the hunter trapped in a well
In um in Udyogaparva, in uh Mahabharata, there is a story of Vidura preaching to Dhritarashtha. Vidura is heavy. He is sadhu.
Sadhu means one who cuts. So Vidura, when he came to Dhritarastra, he started chastising him. He's saying this.
And in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, we have the same story described how Vidura is heavily preaching to Dhritarashtra that he's totally an illusion.
And you know, Udyoga-parva Vidura tells the story about the king who goes hunt to the forest. And this king who goes hunt to the forest is human being. The same analogy, the same comparison is there.
And it is said that when king hunts in the forest, all of a sudden the tiger, the tigress appeals. And the tigress is lost. And the tigress has its three cubs.
The tigress has the cub of anger and the cub of greed and the cup of illusion. This is what the tigress of lust give birth to. The tigress of lust inevitably produces anger, greed, and illusion.
So then this king is being chastised by this is being chased by this tigress, and he's fleeing away. And by fleeing away, he falls down into dark well. And while falling down, this is a you know big, big hole in the earth.
And while falling down, he somehow or other gets the chance to hold for the root of the tree. And he's there, and the tigress is on the the top tigress is looking at him and
he's there you know and then uh uh deep down in the bottom of this well there is a big crocodile the crocodile there he has this mouth wide open. You know here in Florida there are many crocodiles I heard.
And sometimes the crocodiles when they just lay down, they put their mouth wide open, you know. And they can spend hours in this position because they you know very clearly make it everyone know what is their intention.
We want to swallow you. So the crocodile of death is there on the dock on the bottom of this well, and someone is just you know clinging on this root of the tree, and the root of the tree is you know almost falling
and then the big snake is crawling and the snake is of course a time that time is swallowing everyone and then two little rats are coming, and these two little rats, they start, you know chewing this root. Day and night.
Because any time you can fall down and the tigress is roaring but then on this tree there is honey you know hive beehive
honeycomb and drops of honey are dropping and the man who is clinging he's you know taking this honey and he's so happy You know he's hanging there and he's tasting this honey. is This very nice. This is very nice.
I have such a fortunate life because I can taste this little honey. This is this is the uh the position of human being. The human being they're you know surrounded by so many difficulties in this life.
But still because they want to enjoy this little enjoyment, this tucham, sukkam, uh they're ready to do this. They're ready to pay the price. They think that this is you know a good deal. You know we have a good bargain.
I have little honey here. So and therefore, you know, one has to be very careful about this because this is the attachment. This is really what keeps us in this world attached to this world and doesn't let us go.
And uh like it is said that in this prison of material existence there is no bars and there is no you know, there is no heavy logs and you know, it's open, but there are chains of this Maituna Agara which are very heavy.
Degrees of lust covering human intelligence
And Krishna also explains this in the third chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. And I don't remember who it was, it's either Rāmānujācārya or Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura.
By commenting on these points which Krishna makes, he gives a very beautiful description how lust covers the intelligence of the human being.
It is said in the third chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samud-bhavaḥ mahāśano mahā-pāpmā viddhy enam iha vairiṇam that this lust is burning and it's all devouring. Baba Mahashana Mahapapma that this lust is burning and it's all devouring.
It's mahāśana. Mahāśana means you cannot satisfy it. No matter how much you feed it. And mahāpāpma means it's it's very sinful and it's very strong.
And uh Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura he makes this point uh here if I get it right, and that because it's uh you know there are different ways of dealing with the enemies. You can deal with the enemies by trying to appease them, you can deal with the enemies by trying to bribe them.
If it doesn't work with pleasing them or appeasing them, you should bribe them. If it doesn't work with bribing them, you should make a dissension among the enemies.
And if it doesn't work, then the last means of dealing with the enemies is the punishment. It's nīti-śāstra. So Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura makes the point that this is the enemy.
And Krishna says, this is Mahavairi, this is the greatest enemy of the human being. And because it's so great, Mahashana Mahapapma, you cannot really appease it. Don't even try. You may try to bribe it.
You may say to your last, dear Mr. Lust, can you take a little bribe? You know, this is my wife. You know, and he may take this bribe, this may be the way. But ultimately you have to punish it.
The ultimate way of dealing with this enemy is punishment.
And of course, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he also says that, and Prabhupāda says in this purport, that the way of dealing with this problem is actually to get the wife and to have normal family life and be satisfied with it.
Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says that this is the way. No matter who you are, if you have this body of flesh and bones, you have sexual desire. And because you have sexual desire, to reduce this sexual desire is just to have wife. And this is quite normal.
But people, they want to, you know, to ignite this fire more and more and more. So Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says that bribery may work in this case, but better to punish it.
The best way because this enemy is so strong. You have to punish it. You have to restrain it. You have to take very strong measures when you deal with these matters. Otherwise it's not going to work.
And then he explains very beautifully, because in one of the next verses it is
said that this lust is covering intelligence. And there are three degrees, as we know, of covering intelligence: as the fire which is covered by smoke, as the mirror which is covered by dust,
and as the embryo which is covered by the womb.
And he explains that intelligence, the real purpose of human intelligence — Because human beings are unique among the 8 million, 400,000 species of life, human beings are unique because they have this strong intelligence.
And the main purpose of the strong intelligence is to push one into the spiritual path. It's to explain that there is no happiness in this world.
And if you don't understand this, it means that your intelligence is covered. So I believe it's Rāmānujācārya in his commentary on this verse, He says that everything has function and form.
And when intelligence is covered by the smoke, it means that the form is not there. You don't see, uh, the form of the fire which is covered by the smoke. But function is still there.
Because even though the fire is covered by the smoke, still it burns.
So the meaning here is that even when the lust is not so strong, when it's covering the intelligence, but it's not so strong, it's kind of, you know, says that, you know, maybe you should enjoy this, but still, the form of the intelligence is there. The, sorry, the function of the intelligence is there, it means that one has very strong desire to practice spiritual life.
Even though he's fighting with this enemy, even though it's covered by the lust, still the function is there and the intelligence, if one is not intelligent enough, he is practicing spiritual life despite all these problems.
Because he knows this is the ultimate goal of life, because he knows that this is what I should do in this life.
Then he says, when the intelligence is covered like the mirror is covered by the dust, then the function is not there.
When the mirror is covered by the dust, you don't really see your reflection. You look in this and you only see the dust. But the form is there. And this is the stage of intelligence.
Actually, when the intelligence is strong enough, even though it's covered by the lust, it fights with the lust. When the intelligence is weaker, when the covering is more thick,
it means that one knows that I have to practice spiritual life. One knows that I have to do it and I have to ultimately conquer over this enemy. But you know, the function is not there.
And he says, Yes, I know this, but I cannot do this. I'm too weak. So this is the next stage of covering. The first stage of covering, you're fighting with it, but you're still doing. And you have ultimate success.
If it's the covering is thicker, you're fighting with it, but you're not fighting with it. You're admitting theoretically, yes, I should do it, but you know, not now. A little later. You know.
Please help me to get rid of lust, but not now. You know, I I have a long life and you know when I am old and useless, I will do this.
And ultimately, when the intelligence is covered like an embryo in the womb, you know, there is no form and there is no function.
And it means that intelligence, the intelligence which is so grossly covered by the lust, it rejects the very idea that I have to get rid of it.
It says bluntly from the very beginning: no lust is good and spiritual life is bad. Atheism is good, God is bad. Because God is the obstacle for me to enjoy this life.
So this is when one is totally lost and one is like animal. When the intelligence is covered by the lust, one comes to the level of animal, and this is atheism. When one says, you know, lust is good, I have to do it.
You know, we are all human. You know, and human means lusty, right? But no, human doesn't mean lusty. Animal means lusty. Human means one who tries to overcome this.
And one has to know and understand Krishna is making this warning that it's it's a very strong thing. We should not underestimate this. This is very strong.
You know, sometimes we become little you know complacent in the spiritual life and sometimes we think you know I'm I'm free from it. Like once one disciple came to Śrīla Prabhupāda and says, Prabhupāda I have no lust.
Prabhupāda says maybe you have to go to the doctor. Because everyone has. If you have flesh, you have to understand you have lust.
And no matter you know which dress you are, it may be color, color doesn't mean much, you know. It m mostly means your intention, you know. Uh but uh everyone is in this position, everyone is uh covered
Jaimini's lesson on controlling the senses
by the lust and this enemy is inside, not outside. There is another story in Mahābhārata about Jaimini. And Jaimini was a disciple of Vyāsadeva, you might have heard it.
And Vyāsadeva was dictating to him, and he was dictating this famous verse, which is also there it's in uh uh Manu-saṁhitā and it's in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Balavadindriya Gramm Vidvams Api Nakashati Yeah.
So he said Balavan Indriya Gramad that Indrias are so strong that even one vidvam sap apikarshati that uh they drag down even someone who has the knowledge.
And he was dictating this verse and the Jaimini, he was a Muni, and he thought, my spiritual master must be wrong. You know, because I'm Vidwan.
I'm Vidwan, I have so much knowledge and I'm totally free from this sex desires. So he made little correction to this verse. He was editing at the same time. He was not only writing, he was editing.
So he's put just one sound there an. Vidvan snappy karsaker. But you know, indis are so strong, but Vitván who has the knowledge, he is free from this, you know. They cannot do anything with him.
And he did it that he was, you know, he was very happy. I saved my spiritual master from embarrassment. Because, you know, I corrected him and I you know, later on somebody will find this mistake. So I corrected him.
And Vyāsadeva of course knew about this. So a little later in the day this Jaimini Muni was alone and his little hut and there was pouring rain. The rain was pouring like anything, cats and dogs.
And you know, somebody knocks on the door and he opens the door, and there is a beautiful woman there and she's wet like anything. She is, you know, her sarī is just, you know. And she's so dear sage, Saint, you know, please give me shelter. And of course, you know, this is all also a propensity in every man's heart.
If a woman asks you for shelter, you have to give it, right? So he says, yes, please, you're always welcome. Come in.
This is a nice shelter and there is a fire there in this little hut and she sits by the fire and he looks at her. He looks at her and looks at her.
And she's you know trembling and shivering and the sun is there but it's wet so her forms are there and he is, you know, and he feels temptation design and he and he cannot do anything.
He goes to her like being you know attracted like the iron by the magnet, you know, he goes. He says, no no no no don't touch me. Don't touch me. I'm a chaste woman. He says, no, I'm also chaste, so I want to marry you.
She says, if you want to marry me, we have to do it properly. You know, I'm very chaste. So you have to bring me to the temple, which is nearby. And he says, Yeah, yeah, right now. There's no time. We have to do it now.
And she says, Yeah, but I have one condition. You have to kneel down and I will be on the top of you. And then this way you bring me to the temple. He says, Yeah, yeah, whatever you like. I can do it.
So she sits on the top of him and you know and he's you know crawling to this temple and the the rain is pouring and she is beating
him and she's saying balavat indriya-grāmo vidvān api karṣati. And he looks up and he sees it's Vyāsadeva sitting on the... says, was I right or wrong? And Jaimini says, yes, you were right. I was wrong.
So because this is this is light. And therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is so strong about it. And we should not underestimate this. We should not try you know to neglect this problem.
This problem is there and one has to deal with it. One has to be very open and dealing with this problem.
Overcoming lust through Lord Krishna's mercy
And hoping for the help of Krishna. Ultimately, by the help of Krishna, it is said that the chastisement of this last ultimately is coming from the transcendental cupid. Krishna is God of love.
And if He steals our heart, then we are free from this. But not before that. Only when we totally fall in love with Krishna then we can feel ourselves that we are somewhat protected.
And actually the main protection is this prayerful mood. Also King Kulashekhar, Kulashekhar Advar, and his Mukunda Mala's daughter, he also prays the same way.
He says, he said um what is this Balat Andasimehritabiveta Ma Mahajanasa Chorai Um Balat Indriana Madheya? Whatever it is.
That these Indrias are so strong that they have robbed me. They are chorasya, they are chora, they are thieves. They have robbed me from this Hritavi Veka, from the intelligence, from the transcendental intelligence.
And then he says, Mahandakupa, Mohandakupa Vinipatitasya. And I have fallen in this well of material life. And then he says, Oh my dear Lord, give me your hand of mercy.
Only by your mercy I will be able to get out of this well. Only by your mercy I will be able to get rid of this, you know lust and the miseries which senses inflict on me.
So this is this is the mood because only by the mercy of Krishna and his representative we can be free from this. There's no other way. We have to pray all the time. And this is what saintly association is all about.
The main purpose of saintly association is to see someone who is free from lust and who is still happy. If you see someone, because our main problem is that we have this hope that by lust I will be happy.
But uh and therefore we are afraid. We think what's gonna happen to me if I get rid of lust? Will I be happy?
So when we see someone, a saintly person who is totally happy without being succumbed by this lust, uh you can be totally relieved from your anxiety. And this is actually what the Saintly Association does.
And the Saintly Association gives you this understanding that this is good, which you will never be able to get from any other source.
This is another very important point because when we are in this life and we have some kind of social pressure and everyone is hunting, everyone is hunting after enjoyment after women.
And you know, you kind of feel obliged to do the same. Because he is hunting and he is hiding and he's hiding. Am I fooled? Am I missing the point of life? Everyone is doing it.
So when the saint comes, he says something in very strong words and you accept it. This is actually another quality of the sādhu. Sādhu cuts, but when he cuts, he is doing it in such a way that you accept it.
And it cannot be imitated. Like Malati Mataji, she tells the story. She's of course from this hippie background. And hippies were after love. You know, they were searching for love. And love in the material sense, of course.
And they were searching and searching and searching, but you know, it's not there. So, but still, because everyone is searching, because this is the point of life.
You know, you have to find this love and the sexual relationship between men and women. You know, you you're still doing it and you still have some hope.
Because maybe it didn't work this time but it will work later or with somebody else.
So she says that the first thing she remembered when Prabhupāda first came to San Francisco and they flocked together, they only heard about him. They didn't hear him speak or didn't see him.
So first thing which he said, he looked at them and there is this hippie crowd. He looked at them and the first phrase which he said, there is no love in the material world. Right?
And this is probably the last thing which you want to hear, right? But that was his introductory sentence. There is no love in the material world. And she says the feeling which I had at that time. Thank God.
She says I had a great feeling of relief, you know. Now I I'm not obliged to search for it because it's not there anymore.
You know the when the saintly person says this with great realization, with grave realization, you accept it. And you become happy, yes.
You shouldn't find for it, you shouldn't, you shouldn't sorry, you shouldn't look for it in the material world, you shouldn't search for it, you should, you know, because it's not there. I once tried to imitate it.
I was in London and uh there is this little hippie centre there.
It's something like you know in the sixties when Prabhupāda came to America and there is district in London and they give free food for some you know strange people. You know, they take drugs there. It's hippie district.
So and uh there is a very successful food for life program. They have some seller down there and they have some philosophical programs. So they invited me and they was this the same crowd which Prabhupada was dealing with.
And you know, I asked what should we speak about? And they said, let's speak about love. And I said, yeah, let's speak about love. And I'm very proud, I said. There is no love in the material world.
They always wanted to eat me. They were so angry. So you cannot really imitate it, but when the saintly person says it with deep realization, you feel relief, you know. This is yes, there is no love. Yes.
Sex life is not good. Yes. We shouldn't really search for it. Yes, there's no problem. But there is love.
There is greatest love, there is highest possible love, love of Godhead, which we should search for, and this is the real purpose of human life and the real purpose of human intelligence.
So if we understand this through the saintly association, and this is the only way to understand this, this is the only way to get really the strengths to pursue this path, if we understand this, then we are on the safe side.
And if we keep on hearing about this, no matter how painful it is sometimes, then ultimately we will reach this uh uh goal of all our endeavors.
Distinguishing between lust and divine love
Okay, thank you very much. Śrīla Prabhupāda-ki Jaya! I said once, uh, a few weeks ago in class that, or apologies, I studied same pressure time as from viewpoints on karma, modern etc.
One of the translations they give for prema is love. And and here Śrīla Prabhupāda gives it love because you can understand that so far.
But also understand that sometimes things so only that we project that there's only kāma, lust, and then there's only Kṛṣṇa-prema, there's only love for God as Kṛṣṇa.
But so we try to utilize our misconception of love and we can direct that to Kṛṣṇa without really remembering the fact that it's only regard and it's love when we start thinking, oh, love Kṛṣṇa.
Yeah, it's it's uh Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura calls it vikṣepa. Vikshepa means when we project our material experience into the spiritual realm, which is a very grave mistake which we can do.
When we make this projection and we try to understand the spiritual realm or spiritual world or spiritual life by our or through our material experience.
But at the same time, we have to understand that there is a lot of similarities too, and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is very—he emphasizes this point very much. In Prēma-pradīpa, he says that ultimately it's the same feeling.
And I know that even in our sampraday, in Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya, there are different shades of understanding of this point. Some acharyas they prefer to stress more that this
is completely different kind of feeling, prema. And some try to you know make the connection, not try to make the connection, but emphasize the connection between these two feelings. And both points of view are right.
You know, if you want to save people from this mistaken idea that uh this is the same and uh save people from this sahaji mentality by just taking this last and you know kind of without changing it so much, applying it to the spiritual realm, then of course
you have to stress the difference between the two and say that prema is regard and prema uh you know prema has the different totally different nature.
But at the same time if you want people to get some idea what it is like, you also have to make the similarities between the two. And Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he chooses to stress this point.
Even though one of his you know points of preaching was against Sahaji, still he says it again and again and again in his writings that the nature is the same, basically.
And but you know it has to be purified and it has to be. And Prabhupāda by translating prema as love, he more or less follows the footsteps of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura in this regard.
And he explains of course that this is, you know, it has to be purified, you cannot really take it literally so to speak. And he gives this example of yogurt and milk. You know, prema is the is milk.
But when you put something sour, when you put rajo-guṇa which is this souring agent, then it becomes lust and it becomes yogurt and the nature becomes different. But ultimately it's the same essence.
It's the same in essence, but the function and everything is different. So that's that's the understanding. It depends, it's it's just a question of emphasis, what we want to emphasize more.
Yes, but of course a lot of acharyas are quoting each other. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of, you know, pointing to something, pointing to the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, when it's mixed with rajo-guṇa, it becomes sour and it becomes the pure milk of prema becomes yogurt or whatever, sour milk. Yeah, of lust.
But of course you're right, we have to understand the difference. We have to understand very clearly the difference. Otherwise, this Sahaja mentality will creep in and which we can also see.
Actually, there is a very beautiful uh definition of sahajiya. Um the definition is given by Keśava Mahārāja, uh in his introduction to uh uh commentary to the Madhurāṣṭakam and he says
that sahaja means the attempt to interact with the Lord by our material senses.
Not by spiritual senses, but the attempt to use the material senses for the interaction of for our, you know, for seeing the Lord by material eyes, hearing the Lord by material ears and so on and so forth.
Keśava Mahārāja, Bhakti Prajñāna Keśava Mahārāja, one of the disciples of Prabhupāda. Yeah. That's the exact point that I mean,
also kind of take reference to the more extreme stuff in the movement where it's not like somebody is dancing out of fun and singing out of a strong motive.
But he says he goes quite far in defining sahajiyā. He says your desire to see the Lord by your material eyes is sahajiyā. It refers to other any other senses as well, but you know, specifically even this,
sometimes we think it would be nice to see the Lord, right? You know. But this is sahajiyā.
You have first to completely change the set of your senses and only then some interaction is possible and this is you know this is to show how difficult the spiritual process must be. Okay. Thank you very much.
Śrīla Prabhupāda.