Bhagavad-gita 9.3
Bhakti Vijnana Goswami · Copenhagen · 2023
Chapters
Namah om Vishnu-padaya krsna-presthaya bhutale srimate bhaktivedanta-swamin iti namine Namaste sarasvate deve gaura-vani- प्रचारине nirvisesa-sunyavadi-pascatya-desa-tarine Pascatya-desa-tarine Nirvisesa-sunyavadi-pascatya-desa-tarine Vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca krpasindhubhyas ca patitanam pavanebhyo vaisnavebhyo namo namah
Jaya Sri Krishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nityananda Sri Advaita Gadadhara Sivasadi Gaura Bhakta Vrinda Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
So Hare Krishna.
Reading Bhagavad-gita chapter nine verse three
Thank you very much for hosting us tonight. I was asked to speak on the topic of the dynamic of spiritual growth or spiritual advancement, what does it mean and how it works in practical sense.
So I will read uh one important verse from Bhagavad-gītā to start this discussion. This is the third verse from the ninth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, which is called Most Confidential Knowledge. And this verse.
Anyway, I'll I'll tell you what is there in this verse. Let's chant it together. Ashradadhanaha. Ashradhanaha. Purushaha. Dharmasya dharma asya parantapa, apprapya praam nivartante,
Mrityu-saṁsāra-vartmani, Britiam Sadavartmani, Ashradhanah Purusha, Ashradhana Pusha, Ashradhanah Purusha, Dharmasja parantapa, Dharma Pampa, Dharmasse parantapa,
Aprapya Mamni Vartante, Mrityu- saṁsāra-vartmani, samsaravat Asradhanahpurosa, Dharmasesaparantapa, Aprapya Mamni Vartante Mrityu- saṁsāra-vartmani Saravart Mani word
by word translation Ashradhanaha, Ashradhana, those who are faceless, Purushaha, Purushaha, such persons, dharmasya toward the process of religion. Asya this parantapa O
killer of the enemies without obtaining Mam me Nivartante Come backy of death saṁsāra in material existence. Vartmani on the path.
Translation Those who are not faithful in this devotional service cannot attain me or conqueror of enemies. Therefore they return to the past of births and deaths in this material world.
The faceless cannot accomplish this process of devotional service. That is the purport of this verse. Faith is created by association with devotees.
Unfortunate people, even after hearing all the evidence of Vedic literature from great personalities still have no faith in God. They are hesitant and cannot stay fixed in the devotional service of the Lord.
Thus, face is the most important factor for progress in Krishna consciousness.
In the Chaitanya Cheritamrita, it is said that face is the complete conviction that simply by serving the Supreme Lord Shri Krishna one can achieve all perfection.
That is also that is called real face, as stated in Shrimad Bhagavatam, Yathatarmula, Nishai Chaninatripyanti Tatskanda, Bujopashaka. Pranopaharach Chayathendriyanam Tathaiva Sarvarhanam Achuteja.
By giving water to the root of a tree, one satisfies its branches, twigs, and leaves, and by supplying food to the stomach, one satisfies all the senses of the body.
Similarly, by engaging in the transcendental service to the Supreme Lord, one automatically satisfies all the demigods and all other living entities.
Therefore, after reading Bhagavad-gītā, one should promptly come to a conclusion of Bhagavad-gītā. One should give up all other engagements and adopt the service to the Supreme Lord, the personality of Godhead.
If one is convinced of this philosophy of life, that is called face. I will stop here and let me try to speak something about this verse.
Yanda Pradishima Vachimam Prasuktam Sanji Vayata kila shakti darak swadaman nyam schahasta charana sravanat bhagadim pranandamu bhagagawate, puchae truga, Narayana, namskrita, nam, che va, routa mam, deviam, sara sati, bia som, tau djam mudi rayet.
Vedic and Western concepts of faith
Swacia, we swa skah, pracy da tam d
So I will try to explain what is the difference between the conception of face, which is there in Vedic tradition, in quote unquote Hindu traditions and the Western understanding of what face is and why face is so necessary.
It's actually quite clear if we take the context of this verse of Bhagavad-gita, because in the previous verse, in the second verse Gita, because in the previous verse, in the second verse
of this ninth chapter, which is one of the most important chapters of Bhagavad-gita, if not the most important, being the central chapter of the whole Bhagavad-gita Gita containing very confidential knowledge.
In the second verse, in the previous verse uh of this text, uh Krishna glorifies the knowledge which he is about to explain to Arjuna. He already told him so many other things.
yoga, he explained how karma-yoga gradually purifies the heart yoga, he explained how karma yoga gradually purifies the heart when a person acts without attachment to the fruits of his action, becomes detached and acts as out of duty.
He explained how the purification of the heart invokes knowledge.
And by knowledge Krishna bets spiritual knowledge, not just you sam uh information which may be there in the brain, he means the knowledge or real understanding that I'm eternal. The knowledge of eternity, the understanding that I'm soul, spiritual by nature.
And this is the result of purification of the heart, which comes as a result of performing our duties perfectly.
And then he explained when this understanding is invoked, and when the person clearly understands that my life is not finished with this uh temporary span allotted to this body, then he can go deeper by
using aṣṭāṅga-yoga, which he describes in the sixth chapter, by using this mystical process of going deeper and deeper and deeper into the consciousness, into the nature of consciousness, by gradually withdrawing one's consciousness from the external world and putting it inside and going into the depths of this experience.
And then he explained how to see God everywhere. How to connect with God and how to understand that the source of everything is already here. He is not some mythological person sitting on the cloud.
You know of course you know if he would be sitting on the cloud in Denmark he would comfortably be sitting most of the year because there is a lot of clouds here.
But the idea is not that he's some remote person somewhere there sadly looking at what people are doing around. But he's already here.
His presence is there and it's being felt by somebody who tuned in his presence, who can understand through the verses of Bhagavad-gita, who can understand how the oh okay. Okay, so what shall I do like this? Yes. Okay. Wow.
Sounds horrible. Okay. Now I have to get used to it. Okay. Okay. And then uh he also explained in the previous chapter in the eighth chapter he explained what happens at the moment of death? Very important question.
Oh, very important understanding, very important concept. How the soul leaves the body and how the soul enters another body.
And now he comes to this ninth chapter and before starting the uh important subject matter of the ninth chapter Krishna glorifies this subject matter to make us uh hear attentively like I did in the beginning of this class.
Devotional service as an experiential discipline
So this is important. I'm about to say something important, and by glorifying the subject matter of this chapter, Krishna says that this is a very secret knowledge. Secret knowledge means Rajaguhyam.
It's uh it's the most secret knowledge because uh it's not easily revealed to us. Because it is something which is not even revealed in many scriptures.
All scriptures speak about God, all scriptures speak about some relationship with God, what we're supposed to do. But Krishna is speaking about love, about very intimate relationship with God.
And this is not a very common topic. So he says that first that it's very purifying, it's the high subject-matter, it's very secret subject matter. But then he says very important thing.
Pratyakshava Gamam Dharmyam Susukam kartumavya. This subject matter has to be experienced. It's not a matter of theoretical knowledge. It's not a matter of intellectual understanding.
This is something which you have to know practically. Oftentimes people think Krishna from the very beginning says, no, no, it's an experiential discipline.
Nowhere it will be said that this is just for your intellectual uh understanding. Everywhere uh there will be there will be some theory spoken there.
There will be understanding how, why, but then there will be attached practice because you ultimately have to get certain experience. You have to really understand it yourself. So, any pursuit of Vedic knowledge implies applying it in practice and understanding all these truths in your own life.
But then in the next verse, in the third verse which we read, all of a sudden Krishna says: «śraddadhānaḥ». But you have to have faith in it. It seems to be a contradiction.
Because in the previous verse he says there is no need of faith. There is no need to believe in anything else, you have to experience it. And in the next verse he says, no, no, you have to believe.
If you don't believe, you will be doomed, religionists who are spread all over the Western world.
Initial faith as a yoga prerequisite
So but there is a difference. And the difference is exactly could be understood if we if we understand this dynamic or the apparent contradiction between these two words, between these two verses.
So the contradiction, actually, there is no contradiction. The riddle is very simple. What Krishna wants to say is that yes, you will have to have experience, faith is not force,
but initially to concentrate your mind on this pursuit, on this path, you have to have faith. Faith is just an initial prerequisite to distract our mind from other pursuits and concentrate on this path.
Because otherwise we will be distracted by so many different goals, and we will try to achieve this goal and that goal, and we will never experience something which Krishna is promising to us.
So faith is uh is actually not necessary in bhakti. In practice bhakti you don't need to believe in anything. Uh because bhakti is independently powerful. You may not believe in the efficacy of the Holy Name.
I personally, when I started chanting the Holy Name, I didn't know who Krishna is. I uh I read Bhagavad-gītā in a very vague translation and I had no clue. I decided to make an experiment.
I didn't believe that the holy name is no different of God, and I didn't believe in all this complicated theology which I have been preaching now for 40 years.
But in the beginning, I just decided to make an experiment, how it will feel. I decided to chant it again and again and again.
And because I knew from my previous experience that if I repeat the same stuff again and again and again, it will become very boring after a very short while. So I decided to try if there will be any difference or not.
And apparently, since I have been chanting for 43 years, now there is some difference between my previous experience and this experience.
So in one sense, there is no need to have faith in the processes of bhakti because these processes are powerful. They have the power to give us some experience.
Like I remember very vivid and very deep, amazing experience which was there in the beginning of my spiritual journey, and which happens every now and then.
But faith is very much necessary if we want to practice the devotional service or this dharma, as Krishna says, this dharma, this path, this this dharma means this nature of ours because actually the spiritual inclination is in everyone's heart, everyone has some spiritual inclination.
We all have some spiritual quest, some desire to understand something deeper.
So, but if we want to follow this path purely then faith is necessary because uh if there is no faith then we will naturally be distracted in too many other things and the goal will not be clear and we will practice bhakti or
Motives behind conventional religious faith
bhakti-yoga approximately in the similar way as many other people in this world practice their particular religion. You know, their religion is nothing special. So many people believe in something.
And faith is nothing special. So many people have faith, so many people have blind faith. So many people believe in some dogmas. This is nothing specific there.
So usually for them the faith is something which they do just in case it works. They don't really believe that God is there, but you know, because they are fearful inside.
Just in case it works, let's do it just, you know, to be safe. Let's go to the church, let's put some little money, you know. You know, luckily they don't ask for much, so a little bit is no problem.
So but the benefit may be great. And most of the people they they of course they approach God, they try to address God in some difficulties but usually it's a very impure attempt to enter into relationship with God.
A very insincere or very selfish attempt to enter into relationship with God. Please give me something and then you'll do something in return. It's basically, the attempt to make a good business deal with God.
You know, I'll give you uh ten crowns and you will give me the eternal life in heaven. Good deal. No problem. So, you know, I was recently somebody told me a joke. It's a very nice joke. There was one Catholic.
And he was a bad Catholic. He didn't bel he didn't go to church, he didn't do any he didn't fast on the fasting days, he didn't pray.
But at one point, he he was getting a little older and every now and then the you know the thought about God would come to his mind.
And um at one point he it was dark and he was desperately, he desperately needed to go into some supermarket and the whole parking lot was packed and there was no place in the parking lot.
And at this moment he remembered about God and he started praying no my dear God please help me to find a parking place because if you do this I will you know I will pray and I will go to church and I will do everything.
He prays and prays and prays.
And all of a sudden there is, you know, the thunder and you know the beam of light is from the heaven and there is an empty parking spot just shown to him by this beam of light. And immediately he says, never mind, I already found one.
That's usually the extent people people can go. So Krishna doesn't mean this. When he speaks about faith, he doesn't mean this.
What he means here when he says aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa it may sound similar. You know if somebody doesn't have faith, then uh dharmas in this path. Then aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani.
He basically says something which is m very much common sense. He says if you don't have firm faith, śraddhā.
And śraddhā, I will explain a little later that it's actually not a very correct translation of Sanskrit word śraddhā, if we translate it as a faith. But still, you know, for the time being it's okay.
So he basically says what he says that if you don't have faith in this path, then you will not be determined to follow this path. And then you will not reach the goal of this path.
You know, you will be doubtful, and you will be hesitant, and you will just, you know, kind of you know, do it uh in just in case, as I said. And the goal of this path is very high.
That's what Krishna said in the previous verse. He says that this is Rajavidya Raja Guya. This is the secret of the king of all knowledge. The very important knowledge and it's very secret knowledge, so it's not cheap.
To achieve something which is not cheap uh it implies sacrifice from your from your side. If you just do it like this, you know you will not achieve what you're supposed to achieve.
So there is no contradiction between the previous verse and the verse which we read. The faith is very much necessary in any endeavor. In any pursuit, the faith is very much necessary to achieve the goal of it.
You know, it doesn't matter what we are talking about.
If we're talking about, you know, if we want to study science, if we don't really believe that we need it and that we really want to achieve some uh uh you know lofty goal of this science, then then we will not we will not achieve it.
And Krishna says, you know, if you don't believe, no problem, you will return. Krishna doesn't say that you will go to hell. Never Krishna says, well, he speaks in one place about hell.
In the 16th chapter, where he speaks about demonic people who are really bad. He speaks that, you know, they go to hell. But here he only says, Mrityusam Saravartmani, they are coming back to this path of births and death.
They just will be born again, and then they will die again. They will not change their ontological position. They will remain in this world, but death is law. But death is inevitable. So that's what Krishna says.
He doesn't condemn them. He just warns us. He says if you want uh to achieve this very important goal, you have to have some faith in the beginning, some Shraddha in the beginning.
Then it will help you to achieve this goal. And then you will change your status.
Deeper Sanskrit meaning of shraddha
You will not have to be born again, and you will not have to die again, and you will not have to go through the hurdles of old age and disease, which is all the beautiful uh features of this material existence.
So now let's talk a little bit about faith because faith the śraddhā Sanskrit word which is translated in English as faith.
As I said, you know, English translation of Sanskrit is never correct. It just cannot be correct. Because uh it's a completely different uh language which reflects a c completely different worldview. And therefore, it's difficult to find the exact equivalent of Sanskrit words.
And that's why Srila Prabhupada put Sanskrit in In his translation, left Sanskrit in his translation.
And moreover, very interestingly, if you notice, even in this verse, he sometimes translates the word in Sanskrit in word by word in one way and puts something different in the translation of the verse to give us the understanding that uh this particular word in Sanskrit have uh uh different dimensions.
Sometimes people are bewildered why it is they try to, you know, if it's translated in word by word, it should be also repeated in translation. No, it doesn't have to be repeated in translation because there are different aspects
of the same word and Srila Prabhupada wants to give us more holistic understanding of the meaning of the words uh word. So yeah and uh I told today that uh do you know uh how many words are there in English?
It's around uh one million two hundred thousand. It's uh it's a very huge language, actually. Uh no Englishman knows all the words of English language. It's a very big, you know.
In Russian there's hardly maybe uh four hundred thousand words. In English it's much more. You know how many words are in Sanskrit. Can you guess? Million four hundred thousand. Okay. Any other ideas?
Because we can create words in Sanskrit, it's unlimited.
Well, uh i if you leave aside all these compounds, we don't count compounds, only if you take all the permutations of the words. There is around one trillion words in Sanskrit. One trillion.
Million times more than in English.
So naturally there is no possibility to find the exact equivalent for all the Sanskrit words by using language which is by definition less developed and less and conceptually much more simple.
Anyway, so the word Śraddhā is very interesting. Śraddhā. Different uh yogis, sacharyas of the past they give different definition of this word, etymological definition, how it uh uh was derived.
Det säger att det kommer från the skrit från det rut grit which betins hört. English varet hört is kommer från this grit. It's something in which you invest your heart.
Or in Sradai means something which helps you to invest your heart into something which helps you to concentrate on certain endeavors and doing something.
But Vyāsadeva, commentator of Patañjali Muni, Patañjali Muni, great yogi, he explains also that śraddhā is a very important preliminary step in yoga, in any yoga.
And including aṣṭāṅga yoga, including all these asanas and pranayamas, again, śraddhā is there. Śraddhā then vīrya, then smṛti, then samādhi, then prajñā.
He explains this gradual development of spiritual advancement on the path of yoga. So again, the beginning of śraddhā. But of Vyāsadeva, his commentator, commentator of Patañjali Muni says, what is śraddhā?
He says, śraddhā is manaḥ prasādaḥ. It's the clarity of the mind. Very interesting definition. Śraddhā again is not just some blind faith. You have to believe otherwise you go to hell. You know. No, that's not the concept.
It's certain clarity of your goal, clarity of your consciousness, clarity of your mind, or peacefulness of the mind.
The something which comes to you when you're peaceful and you understand this is the meaning of life. This is the way I want to go. This is the goal I want to achieve.
Something which comes to you in a clear minds, in the clear moments. You know, because oftentimes we are not very clear in our mind.
And śraddhā is this elevated state of consciousness where you clearly see this is what you should do. Where you clearly feel the internal calling.
There is a calling of the soul, and the soul is saying, you know, you you you have to find death is not normal. You you shouldn't take it for granted.
You know, and we all know, we all know that there's something unnatural in death. Even though it seems to be the most natural thing in the world, still there is some resistance, some revolt against it.
So that's why Vyāsadeva commenting on this Yoga Sūtras of Patañjali, he says this is the clarity of the mind which nurtures the yogi on the path, which gives us the strength to follow this path.
Because this path, any, any path of yoga is not easy. Although Krishna says, Susukamkartu Mavyayam, this is a very easy path, no problem. Just do it, you know.
Overcoming doubts on the spiritual path
And sometimes Prabhupada says, just eat and sing some songs, and you will be there in no time. That's all some little advertisement tricks. The path of yoga is not easy because there are internal impediments.
Yes, there is a calling of the soul. Yes, we know that there is a need. We know that there is a spiritual need that the soul needs. The soul will never be satisfied no matter how happy you are in this material environment.
The soul needs more. The soul yearns for something more.
But because it's not easy, and because the realization doesn't come immediately then we need to face all different stages of our spiritual journey because there will be different uh junctions, crises.
You know, sometimes we may have doubts. Like a couple of days back, there was this nice person, Lalitinat Prabhu introduced to me one nice journalist. And we were speaking with him.
And his main question was: Do you have some doubts or not? And this question is answered by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. He says there are different kinds of doubts.
that God exists, you may have doubt uh that uh you know he is like this, how he is explained everything. And then you may have doubt in your own ability to achieve him.
That's a very common doubt because sometimes we try and try and try and it seems like we go nowhere. We just get stuck somewhere and nothing happens and there is no progress. So many doubts may be there.
And Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī says, yes, on this stage this doubt is dissipated, and on this stage this doubt is dissipated. And he said that there is a stage when all the doubts are dissipated. No doubts anymore.
This is the stage when you see God in front of you, face to face. Not before that. Before that, doubts may be there. Should be there.
If anything, we should not really try to hide these doubts uh and pretend that we don't have doubts. And I, you know, he was very surprised when I when he said, yes, uh I'm a doubting person. I'm generally doubting person.
I I don't I don't you know take uh uh things on a blind faith, you know. And that's that's why that's why I'm here and and not somewhere else. That's why I am following this path because this path encouraging me to doubt.
Encouraging me to be honest and to see inside and to and at the same time, you know, not uh not viciously doubtful, not doubtful in a bad way, but uh but uh but at the
same time you you you need to have faith to overcome these doubts. Not to blind yourself, but to overcome these doubts.
And therefore Vyāsadeva, when he explaining this notion of Shradha, he says that Shraddha is like mother. And mother is feeding his little her little son by milk, by the breast milk or whatever, and giving him strength.
You know. And that's exactly what Shraddha is doing to a little yogis, and we are very little yogis. We are you know kindergarten yogis who are uh who just started their journey.
And we need some nourishment, we need some strength to follow this and to reach the end. So and that's uh that's the understanding, that's the notion of uh Shraddha
and Krishna says if you don't have this, you will not achieve the end. Naturally.
Sooner or later you will be deviated from the past and you will come back to this Mr. Msaravartmani, to this, you know, to this rotation, to this vicious circle of birth and deaths, birth and death, trying to find some happiness in this world, being frustrated, again trying to find after some little relief.
Importance of saintly association and hearing
So that's what Krishna says here when he speaks about Shraddha. And Śrīla Prabhupāda while explaining this concept of Shraddha, he makes a very important point.
He says that the source, the root cause of Shraddha is association. There is no other uh uh uh source of soul śraddhā.
Therefore, in Vedic culture, again and again and again the stress, the emphasis is there on sādhu-saṅga.
You know uh you have to be in the association of sadhus uh you have to be in the association of spiritually advanced people not because they may give you blessings.
You know, usually the normal understanding is that we come to a sādhu and we ask for a āśīrvāda, a āśīrvāda. Which āśīrvāda, you know, I know better, you give me āśīrvāda, and you know I will not disclose. You know.
Give me some blessings.
So that's usual understanding but the greatest blessing which uh a spiritually elevated person can give is the gift of faith which will nourish you on this path of spiritual advancement and will help you to realize your spiritual, eternal spiritual nature, eternal, eternally happy, blissful spiritual nature.
So, what can be greater blessings, and uh Śrīla Prabhupāda, he stresses this because you know by reading books you will never be able to develop proper faith uh Actually, reading of the books was not really encouraged in Vedic culture.
There's so many books in Vedic culture. But what is always being encouraged in Vedic culture hearing, not reading. Because when you're reading, there is a very big difference between reading and hearing.
When you're reading, you're reading with your own mind. And you more or less only can believe when you're reading a book which is confirmed by your own experience.
You can only extract or take advantage of something which is written in the book, if it is already confirmed by your experience, you hardly get anything new, maybe some little you know, idea here and there on the intellectual level.
But if uh something which is far beyond your experience, uh you will just reject it. You will not even notice it. You will not be able to take advantage of it. It's there in the book.
But then you know fifteen minutes later after you read it you already forget it because it was not confirmed by yourself. But when you're hearing, something much more different and much more profound may happen with you.
Because hearing means you're sharing the experience of somebody who is speaking. You are not only relying on your own experience, you are taking advantage of the experience of somebody who is speaking.
He is speaking from his experience, and therefore he is able to speak with conviction. Conviction is a result of experience. And you are moved more profoundly, even though you may read the same thing.
You know, you may read many times, "I'm not this body." And you may even hear many times, "I am not this body." You may even like this concept, "I'm not this body."
And still you forget this concept the moment when you're not in contact with this concept.
But then when somebody says, "You're not this body," and you're, oh yeah, right. Yeah, that must be true. So uh this kind of uh moment can only come when when you uh change your belief status, your belief uh level.
When your belief goes a little deeper, only when you hear somebody speak.
And therefore, of course, nowadays the most sādhu-saṅga takes place in Zoom. I think this should be also some uh some special program uh you call anyway.
Ah once I spoke with Guru Maharaj and I asked him what are you doing, he said I am consumed. Always there in Zoom. So so but uh it's not the same.
It's uh it's actually not the same and therefore uh uh so much emphasis is there in Vedic culture. You come to a sādhu. And you know, there are many stories.
I will not tell that there is a famous story about the thief who just heard half of the sentence from the sādhu because his father forbade him to listen to sādhus.
His father was a very good thief, and his father said, My dear son, if you want to be a good thief, never listen to a sādhu, because if you listen to them, your business will just be failure.
So but somehow or other by accident he heard the phrase, and this phrase, half of the phrase of the sādhu, and this phrase saved him. That's a famous story, I will not repeat it.
Innate role of faith in humans
But again, the idea here is that very important because if you know we all have Shraddha, we all have faith. We all believe in something.
It would be very presumptuous and actually outright wrong to say that I don't believe in anything. Krishna himself says in the 17th chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, śraddhāmaya ayaṁ puruṣa.
Purusha, the soul, the living entity, the particle of consciousness, consists of śraddhā. Why? Because uh because uh we can never have the complete experience.
We will we are tiny by nature and we will have to even to exist in this world we will have to believe so many things. You know, like uh uh I've never been to China. So I believe that China exists.
I don't have this experience. And I don't have so many other experiences. I you know, I uh you know I I have to believe that people went to Moon, I have to believe that uh that Putin exists, you know. I don't know.
Maybe I'm an illusion. I I would be happy if I was. So, but śraddhā-mayi ātma-śuddhi. The idea here is that we believe. Every one of us believes. Faith again is nothing special.
But if we want to believe in God or in this past, in the past of Bhakti, then association with those people who are more experienced is a must because by listening by hearing them we will be able to gain a lot of experience or we will be able to feel little of their experience, a fraction of their experience.
This is how our mind is working. When we are in close proximity with somebody, especially if we open the heart to this person,
If we have the proclivity, if we have the if we understand that here I am and I don't have to put my false ego between him and mine.
You know, usually when we associate with people we have this protecting shield of the false ego which protects my worldview from intrusion.
When we associate with people, we have this protection and we don't allow people to go too deeply.
But in Vedic culture, the stress is there in the sādhu-saṅga, it is said that while coming there you have to come desayed. You have to put aside your false ego. You have to be really open to a miracle which may happen. You have to be really open to a possible change.
Because there is no other possibility for change but the association of saintly people.
You know, we may hear, as I said, we may hear them speak and uh the effect of these words even though again uh they may not say anything new to us.
But the effect of this of their words may move us so profoundly and uh actually push us in the direction uh uh in which we never uh even dreamed to go.
Transformative effect of associating with devotees
Because it's it's a very drastic turn in our life if we start seriously trying to practice spiritual life, it's a revolution in our life. For that we need a push. If there is no push, if there is no extra impetus,
And the push is there. What is the nature of this push? We see the spiritual person, the person who is practicing spirituality, and we see in him something which is different from all other people.
We see some uh some some light or some happiness which he exudes or some enthusiasm which he exudes or some other qualities which are not normal, which are not typical. We see a completely different species of life in one sense. Not completely different, two legs, two hands, the same, two ears also. But still, if we open our heart, we could feel the difference.
We could feel that there is something something different in this person. I remember that was that happened long ago when I was just, you know, uh making my first steps in the spiritual practice.
It was way back in Soviet Union, it was probably eighty eighty-four or eighty-five. So you know most of you were not even born at the time. So you were in some other bodies.
So uh but uh you know it was Soviet Union far away, very strange country where religion is not allowed. And we were secretly still neophyte, very enthusiastic and sometimes fanatical neophytes.
We were trying to speak with other people, explain why we're doing this.
And you know, of course it was very also risky, and it would create some adrenalin boost in our, you know, bodies which was also good for young people.
So I remember we were kind of making friends with one family of some business people. And they were very simple people in a sense, not very intellectual people.
And of course, at that time nobody in the Soviet Union hardly anyone knew English.
Nobody could understand English because you know if you knew English, you know you would be potentially a dangerous person because you could get some information which you're not supposed to have.
So and somehow Rada we got a video tape. At that time, videotapes were you know this big and this thick, and the rare people had some video uh players.
And uh this video tape was with lecture of Harikesh Maharaj at that time, uh, who was of course speaking in English. And uh we were speaking something.
And uh because this business, quote unquote, business people had they video player, and video player were very rare in the Soviet Union. I came to their house just to watch this video. I knew some English.
So I played this video, and in the video, a man dressed like this, sitting in some you know, chair like this, speaking something in English, and I listened, try to understand intellectually and the housewife, very simple lady, she stood there and she watched for at least 40 minutes without understanding a word was going on.
I asked her, why do you watch this? You know, you don't understand anything. There's nothing happening there. There's no action there. There's no, you know, suspense. There's no romance. Nothing.
She said, there's something special. I cannot just take my eyes from this person. He magnetized me. Somehow or other I am, I'm attracted. You know and I was surprised myself because I didn't expect this sort of reaction.
So that's what I said when when people they hear even if they don't understand. But still they sit and listen, you know, something may happen. Beyond the understanding of your intelligence. Something deeper may happen.
Some movement within your heart will tell you. And of course on the level of your intelligence you may resist to this, but still something will happen.
So that's exactly what Śrīla Prabhupāda explains when he says that this is the origin, the source of the faith is when you associate with devotees, with advanced devotees, when you hear them and then this understanding may come to your mind.
One other funny story comes to my mind. It's not so common, so I will tell the story. It's also again again about the thief. In one little kingdom in India, there was a king, and the king had a very saintly daughter.
The daughter was very very spiritual and very pure. And when she came to a marriageable age, the king asked his daughter whom she would like to have as a husband.
And she said, I can only have husband who is very spiritual. So, you know, I I will not go to any other person because I will not be able to live or respect anyone who is not spiritual.
So the king who loved his daughter very much, he announced: you know, all these spiritual people from my kingdom come and I will give you a lot of dowry and you know and I will give you palace and this and that.
Become my son-in-law. Please come. You know, my uh daughter will uh will uh and no he didn't even say about marriage. He said please come.
And the spiritual people came because they thought there will be some uh some uh spiritual happening. They were invited by the king.
They thought, oh, very good, so we will we will have association because everyone in the spiritual circles also values association. So they all came.
And then the king uh came out and he announced, you know, you know why uh what is the reason why I called you all? Because I want to marry uh my daughter to one of you and
I uh no well anyway, so uh yeah, and I will give a lot of wells. So uh the thief somehow or other he he was uh he he knew about the plans of the king. And he thought it's it's a great idea.
Let me put some turban and some nice red clothes and some tilak, and I will come and you know I will have my rosary in my hands and you know let me try to get some reward from the king.
So he came with all this, you know, others and sannyāsīs and sādhu and spiritual people. So, and then uh when the king announced this, that this is about uh marrying his daughter, everyone was so disgusted, you know.
And those who are sannyāsīs they just immediately stood up and went out. Stormed out. And others who were gṛhasthas or whatever they were uh polite, so they remained. And uh the king started approaching them.
Would you like to marry my daughter?
And he said, no, no, I'm not interested in marrying anyone, I just want to remain recluse And I want to do my tapasya and I have my spiritual goal. And he approached somebody else and somebody else.
And Thief is there and he's waiting the moment when the king approaches him and he's just counting, you know, and this will refuse or not, this will refuse or not. He just wants when his turn comes.
And one after another, one after anot No, I'm not interested in this, you know, wealth. Why should I need it? I'm happy myself.
And then ultimately the king comes to the thief and he says, would you like to marry my daughter? He says, why should I marry your daughter? I'm not interested in it. Why should I waste my time?
You know, he was infected by by listening all these sadhus. And in the meantime he was completely converted. Uh and that's that's how it is. So that's uh that's what is going on.
And therefore uh therefore Krishna says here that
Scriptural faith versus conventional faith
uh you know you need to have faith uh to achieve the goal of this pursuit.
And as we know, the faith is just the beginning, faith is the first stage, then the faith brings us to sadhu-sanga and sadhu-sanga means the sadhu-sanga has to be before faith. Faith again is a very rational understanding of the logic of the scriptures. That's another aspect of what faith is.
Faith is the logical understanding of why this path is the correct path. Why this is the best path. So, because there are different kinds of faith.
Our ācāryas explained that there is śāstrīya-śraddhā and there is laukika-śraddhā. Laukika-śraddhā basically means superstition.
It's just, you know, the normal, yeah, when people believe in something, you know, and they believe in Krishna, they believe in Nārāyaṇa, and they believe in Shiva, you know, and they don't really know the difference and they also believe in Ganesh, of course. Ganesh is very important.
But there is laukika-śraddhā, means a lot of superstitions.
Laukika-śraddhā means I believe because my father believed, because my mother believed, because my family believed, because this is my family tradition. That's laukika-śraddhā.
There's not much value in this śraddhā. Śāstrīya- śraddhā means you understand śāstra, you understand śāstra because you heard śāstra from sadhu, you heard śāstra from a sadhu, you understood the logic of the śāstra, you understood how right it is, and as a result of it, the enthusiasm to follow this path appears within your heart. That's what śraddhā is.
Śraddhā means enthusiasm to follow. Śraddhā means the vigor, the energy to follow this path and to overcome the obstacles. So, you know, and therefore the ladder is explained very elaborately.
Śraddhā is the first, you know, sadhu-sanga is the very first step when we get śraddhā, then we start listening consistently and the consistent listening creates consistent faith, śāstrīya-śraddhā, the proper faith, faith in the logic of the śāstra. Then the desire to serve and to associate with the sadhus in a more uh productive way appears.
We understand that you know I already got so much from him. If I come closer to him and if I enter into some deeper relationship with him, he will help me in many, many other areas to overcome my problems.
So that's Sadhu Sangha. Then after Sadhu Sangha, the bhajana-kriya starts, the desire to actually do something in the service of the Lord. And it basically means to hear about Krishna
to hear Bhagavad-gītā, to hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, to hear Rāmāyaṇa, to hear Mahābhārata, to hear all these scriptures, because this is the main service of the Lord.
When Śrīla Prabhupāda says devotional service, it actually doesn't mean some uh difficult thing. It means just hearing about the Lord and developing the attraction to Him.
Because by hearing about the Lord we purify our heart from the saṁskāra impressions. Vi då feel attraktion to the Lord. Vi då feel attraktion to the Lord. The Lord is naturally attractive. Therefore He is called Rāma.
Therefore He is called Kṛṣṇa. Rāma means the, you know, who is full of bliss. Kṛṣṇa means the most attractive. That's the name of God.
So, but why we are not attracted? Because there is too much rust of material experience within our heart. As much as the rusty iron is not attracted to the magnet,
and you have to really wash away the rust, then the attraction will be there in the same way. Again and again and again we should hear. Bhagavad-gītā is so beautiful.
You can hear Bhagavad-gītā again and again and again as if you are hearing it for the first time. And every time you will find something new.
I've been giving uh lectures on this verse, I don't know how many lectures uh on this verse I gave, probably around uh dozen lectures.
I don't know, but at least five, seven lectures on this verse. And it's always something different. Something uh which is coming uh you know when you're speaking. So Bhagavad-gītā is inexhaustible.
You can hear Bhagavad-gītā again and again and again and again and again and again and find some new insights and some new uh understandings uh which is confirmed by you.
Uh what to speak about Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or Rāmāyaṇa. Today in the morning we were talking about just one verse of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which was quite interesting for me to understand.
Anyways, so this commitment to do devotional service regularly, which means to hear regularly, to hear with some commitment. It's very important. Because no relationship works without commitment.
If people come together and they are somehow attracted to each other and they want to experiment in living with each other but they internally don't have any commitment it's not going to work the same way.
śraddhā means commitment and śraddhā means that I take this commitment and then you know I go further and I start listening more and more in a committed way and chant more and more in a committed way.
And the commitment helps me to ultimately achieve the Lord. He says very closely, aprāpyāmāṁ nivartante, if there is no commitment, you will never achieve me. Commitment has to be there.
So this is the c and the commitment is coming from listening. I need it. This is necessary for me. This is something which is very important, something which I'm lacking now.
And to be fulfilled, to feel satisfied in life, I have to enter into more committed relationship on the spiritual path and then ultimately achieve Krishna and leave
this vicious circle of birth and death, birth and death, birth and death, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, which is only possible if you are determined to follow this path.
Understanding the nature of doubts
I guess that's it.
doubts and misgivings and in called dictionary I mean misgivings just means doubts. With proper uses and still can can can you elaborate what is the difference please call it I don't think there is any difference, but sometimes for the emphasis, uh you may repeat two synonyms together.
It's just an emphatic uh construction, which does not necessarily uh uh meant to distinguish between these two words. I think it's the same. Uh it's just for the sake of emphasis.
If you show me the context I'm you know we may try to think about it. But uh as far as I can understand he uses these two words interchangeably. And of course in Sanskrit there are many words for doubt.
One word is uh saṁśaya another word is śaṅkā. The word samsha is very interesting. The prefix sum means completely, perfectly. And the prefix uh and the root shy uh the root she means to sleep.
So it's a very interesting concept. Samsaya doubt is the condition when you have two opposite ideas about the same thing. Or, you know, you have contradictory understandings of what you should do.
And because you know one is pulling in this direction and the other is pulling in that direction. Neither in this direction nor in that direction.
And because you are stationed and you're not moving anywhere, you just sleep being in this position. Samsaya means you go to sleep because you cannot decide what is right and what is wrong.
So yes, uh doubts are not good, doubts are bad. And we have to overcome doubts ultimately, but uh uh faith is necessary to overcome doubts.
But between the doubts and misgivings, I don't think there's anything. Vigilinsky, I don't I don't think there's anything. I think it's based in verse one to twenty one. Yeah, Prabhupada says misgivings suppose.
So maybe in a sense of an artist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes yes, Prabhupada uses misgivings in a very interesting way. He sometimes even translates anarthas misgiving.
So, uh, doubts is a result of our previous experience in the material world. Or the attachments which we developed by being in the material world.
We developed certain attachments, certain misconceptions, certain certain wrong ideas. And uh and we are not only we not only developed this, but we are attached to these ideas.
And because we are attached to this idea, it's very difficult for us to part with all this. And it create they create doubts in our spiritual path. Because they always pull us in the opposite direction.
They always say, you know, no no. It's not so bad. You know. Anyway, so many people are dying, so what's the big deal you will also die. No problem.
Cultivating genuine spiritual experience
Okay. I have uh two questions.
Uh Brahma Rashi said that Shradha comes uh when you have uh peaceful heart peace you feel even if you want to so uh does it uh what it means peaceful heart something about satuna yeah and how and should we make some effort to achieve this or but just something is more important.
Yeah. No. There is no need to achieve it by separate efforts. It's just when you associate with sadhus and who are very fixed up. You feel peacefulness in the heart.
You feel that, you know, yeah you may have so many anxieties, so many again doubts or misgivings. But then when you hear, when you see somebody, you feel that the heart is peaceful.
You know, the intelligence may be revolting, the mind may be not liking, but the heart is saying, no, it's okay. So it's not a separate means. Yes we uh understand like yes, yes, but maybe like
in uh we feel like we said we have experience behind so we feel it and uh we feel also enthusiastic. But uh when we go away or when we start doing something, it's also maybe little tiny left, but uh but not much ordinary.
So why is that and also how to because it's not your experience, it's his experience. You get the shadow of his experience. You get the little spark of his experience and you you kind of experienced his experience.
So we should collect by little things. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you should collect but also try to achieve this experience on your own. Why sometimes we get more, sometimes less. What can we do to get more ourselves?
Sometimes you're more prepared to get his experience, sometimes you're less prepared to get his experience.
Sometimes he may be speaking about something very high, and you're not really ready to, you know, open your heart to this. And sometimes he's speaking something which is more accessible to you. So there are different explanations.
Yes. Yeah I just want Krishna. Just want to ask, uh how can we then recognize spiritual experience on our own? Because it's might be also tricky that it's to be our mind tricks or just sentiments.
If you're doubtful, most probably it was not a spiritual experience. Because the nature of the experience in the mind which is given to us by imagination is very flickering. Very flimsy.
You have some you know, something is there, and you're not sure. You feel good, but you're not sure whether it's something real or not.
The spiritual experience, the nature of real spiritual experience is that it's much more vivid than this shadowy experience which is given to us by our mind or imagination. Yes, we can imagine many things.
But usually it's not uh it's very much different from the real spiritual experience. And of course sometimes you you really encounter some miracles, you know, some some something which normally should not happen happens.
And and of course of even in this case you start doubting, you know, maybe it is a coincidence, but anyway, anyway, little by little it become more and more profound. Whether it's the experience of rasas or something. No.
Spiritual experience means experience which is coming, which is coming not from your sensual uh perception and not from your mind, something which is coming from beyond, something which you have never experienced by your senses by interacting of of your senses with the sense objects and something which you never experience in the mind.
You know, some very—it may be very deep emotion, you know, when you break in tears or something like this, you know. It's when you experience something which is beyond the range of normal experience.
We all know the range of normal experience is there.
But when you experience something which you're not supposed to experience at this moment of time and which is far beyond what you're supposed to feel or experience now, then there is a good chance that this is coming from some other plane.
The mystic experience is also beyond, so. Yeah, mystical experience also beyond, yeah. Yeah, and yeah, there are many. It's a very wide category of experiences. Time to speak about this, more specific experiences in bhakti.
You know, in normal yoga, yes, people, they create some miracles, they develop some uh mystical abilities, they can read the minds of people, hear what they think and stuff like this, yeah.
That's also spiritual, or sometimes subspiritual. It's not necessarily—it may be subtle, but I'm just lumping it all together because something which is extraordinary extra natural.
Proper conditions for spiritual experimentation
Supernature. Yes. You said that you decided to make an experiment when you just started to practice. And I believe that even if not consciously, we all kinda when we start we are experimenting.
But for some people this experiment doesn't turn out as well as for example for you. People live or they don't develop this strong natural faith.
So from your long experience and uh this long experiment what you would see as the biggest impediment or biggest fault in experimentation of others that it fails.
They don't you know if you make a scientific experiment in a laboratory, in a lab, you have to very clearly define the conditions of the experiment and the desired goal.
If you don't define the desired goal, the desired outcome, and if you don't very clearly define the conditions, then most probably it will fail because you don't even know what the outcome should be, and you expect something and it doesn't come.
So I didn't expect much from my experiment. I just I very clearly said if I will not get bored by this process I will continue. So in the beginning I didn't get something very far out.
So I uh yeah but then uh I did many other experiments with some other desired outcome. But I I had some conviction in the meantime.
But it wasn't some specific because experiment as I understand we need to have like some goal and also maybe time frame.
Okay if I yeah yeah as I said you have to define the terms of the experiment the conditions you have to define. I am going to do it like this. And you know it you have to also study what the scriptures recommend.
You know, to get the experience you have to do it like, you know for that long, uninterruptedly or whatever. Otherwise if you are doing just you know without any commitment as I said, then it will fail for sure.
But so many people didn't fail. They're all in this in this room. So or at least some of them are in this room. Okay. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Thank you.