Guru-Disciple Relationship (rus-eng)

Bhakti Vijnana Goswami · 2021

Chapters

Understanding guru and disciple expectations

Today our discussion is on what we can expect from a Guru and what a Guru expects from a disciple. And also what we shouldn't expect obviously the other side.

Бхакти Викаша Марадж, I am often asked the question, how do I know such and such a person as a Guru? And it's so hard for me to ask because I didn't choose my Guru. He was... There was no choice. It's just prārabdha.

I feel handicapped and I'd like to ask you that first. I didn't choose my guru either. Oh, you're muted, Maharaj. I didn't choose my guru either. I knew you were gonna say that. I joined in ISKCON, India.

It was not much choice at that time. But I can try to answer this question. Yes.

Guru is supposed to be the representative of the Supersoul. And Supersoul from within the heart is inspiring somebody to do some devotional service. So he is the external representative of the Supersoul.

So basically, if you hear somebody, and by hearing somebody you feel very strong urge to do some service, which you ordinarily would not do, then it's a good chance that Supersoul is involved.

Especially if this is the service that you would normally not do. Yes. Yeah, that's good, yeah. That's

When I saw Prabhupada, it's like something overcame me. I just want to give everything to this person. So that's That's a good sign that, you know, you'll start doing something which you would not do otherwise. Yes.

Like shave your head, put on a rose and jump up and down on the street. Yeah, right. Например, reporting in progress. Please continue. Now I think we should take. We, I like that answer. I agree.

Yeah, there's a resonance that these words are resonating very deeply with me. Words of this person. And it's helping me understand myself better, Krishna consciousness better, Prabhupada better.

And I would add to that, that we feel this person is bringing me closer to Prabhupada. Closer to himself, closer to Krishna, closer to Prabhupada. All of that.

Qualifications of a disciple

Now

sometimes we have the experience that in choosing a spiritual master the disciple is very focused on the qualifications of the Guru, but they're not so much focused on their qualifications. So qualifications of a disciple. What would you say are the prime qualifications? Of a disciple who wants to be a bona fide, deserving to have a bona fide group.

Qualifications ученика. Well, going one step behind or further, not further, but back. Usually when people ask me, you know, how to choose the Guru?

My answer is that, you know, Guru is not for choosing, Guru is for teaching you. Because sometimes people are preoccupied with this notion that I have to choose, but not with the idea that I have to learn from a guru.

So in my humble opinion, you know, the main question is not how to choose the guru, but is there, you know, here is the person from whom I can learn something. If somebody is teaching you, he's a guru.

And the main qualification of the disciple is not how to choose the guru, but how to be able to learn from him something. Okay, so then this brings up another question.

Sometimes I think we see that when someone chooses a guru, they think that a lot of things will happen now without their own effort.

Like, there's this mystical relationship and the guru is going to do so many things and then sometimes they get let down. So can you talk about that? Like, What is... This is partially true, no question that's true.

But what part is fairy tale in that idea? I mean, the same notion that, you know, the main function of a disciple is to choose a guru and everything else after that should happen on its own.

But if the main idea is, you know, I'm trying to find somebody who can teach me and I start systematically learning from him, systematically studying under him, then, you know, it's different ballgame, it's a different understanding.

And regarding the mythology, there is a lot of this stuff, you know. Sometimes people tell me, you know, you came to my dream and you revealed me some secret truth in my dream.

I usually say that I sometimes sleep at night, you know, at least I try. It sounds like you're saying that we need to be more practical unless we about...

Yeah, I mean, the mystical element is there, but the mystical element is involvement of Krishna. Krishna is involved there. So He will do miracles, there is no doubt about it. But it's up to him.

You know, we shouldn't, we shouldn't rely too much on this mystical stuff. Let me add one more sentence. I'm sorry.

I think the most mystical thing which happens is that you say something and sometimes you don't even know what you say, what you're saying. And Krishna makes such a deep impression upon somebody who is hearing.

Know, some very deep truth is being revealed to this person. This is the miracle which Krishna does.

You say something which you, you know, maybe something ordinary but Krishna makes this ordinary thing special and reveals through this sound something very significant. So that's the miracle.

So in other words you're saying, as long as the guru is connected to Krishna via his guru by following, then Krishna will use him.

He'll put the right words in our mouth just for the audience or a particular person in the audience unknown to us. And Lord Saitanya said the same thing. Rāmānanda Rāya said the same thing also. You're making me talk.

I don't know what I'm saying. You're making me sin. But what's most mystical is what Śukadeva Gosvāmī said. He said, I don't even know if my father Vyāsadeva actually understands the Bhāgavatam, even though he spoke it.

But you may speak it, and you don't even understand the depth of it, that Krishna is using here. That's pretty mystical. There is one little addition to what you said.

This miracle happens not only when Guru is connected with Krishna but when the disciple is also connected with the Guru. Otherwise it will not happen.

If there is this connection, then only Krishna will reveal something to him.

So, this is important because Śrīla Prabhupāda, he gives that example. Man is potent, woman is fertile. So the man is the guru, the woman is like the disciple.

It's not just gonna work, like you say, it's not just gonna work just because the guru is qualified. It has the disciple has to be qualified. The disciples kind of overlook that. They think the Guru will do everything.

Defining realistic guru expectations

So now let's go to something a little, a little more maybe interesting and a difficult. We see a problem ensues when a disciple expects something from a guru that is not part of quote unquote his job description. We

So that begs the question. What can we expect? What can we not expect? And does it vary from guru to guru? What we can expect? Well, definitely.

Some gurus, you know, gurus are individual human beings, and some gurus have some strong sides and others have something else. If you expect from every Guru that he will sing like a Gandharva and will inspire, you know, the whole universe by his singing.

It doesn't happen. May that's a gross example, but, you know, there are so many other things, you know. You're a guru now, you have to do everything.

So in my opinion minimum qualification is that guru teaches how to surrender to Krishna and to his spiritual master. He is teaching this, that's the main qualification.

If he is teaching how to surrender, that's already something significant. Sometimes. The rest is bonus. If you can sing like a gandharva or like Mahāprabhu, then it's a bonus.

Well, it's not a bonus if the guru thinks, Okay, let me go around town singing like a gandharva so I can pick up disciples. Then he's not bona fide.

So, I want to take this a step deeper because you understand psychology, and I think this is important.

To share this, that we see, both disciples see and gurus see, that often in the choosing of a guru it's maybe unconscious also that the disciples trying to fulfill some other needs, material needs, through the guru.

So where does that become unhealthy and how can the disciple understand that and understand the limitations? And like you say, some gurus may fulfill that more than others.

I would say that it's never a healthy situation, when you are subconsciously trying to fulfill your material needs by entering into relationship with a guru because sooner or later you will be frustrated. And by being frustrated you will blame your Guru.

And that's not good in the long run. So, from the very beginning we should understand: Here is the person from whom I can learn something. Who is supposed to teach me something. He doesn't have to be my fatherly figure.

He doesn't have to do all kinds of other stuff.

And my relationship should be based on this idea. If my relationship, if I subconsciously build my relationship on some other expectation, then the frustration is inevitable. Yes.

I think, you know, when I met Pravapan, I thought, here's this aspect of father that my father didn't fulfill. But I never needed a father replacement. I just needed a spiritual father.

So I felt that was very healthy, you know, the spiritual father. Is there a problem?

Handling correction and praise

That fine line between what's healthy and what's not healthy? So another thing we see that's quite common is that one of the duties of the guru is to correct.

Sometimes we use the word chastise, but this could be criticized, but really it's just correction. But sometimes it feels like criticism or chastisement. And some people can't take that.

They need to be praised and loved and appreciated. How do we understand that from the position of the Guru and also from the position of the disciple?

When the Guru wants to help the disciple, but he knows the disciple is very sensitive. What would you say about that? You're absolutely right. You know, sometimes disciples say, "Why don't you chastise me?"

But I know that, you know, I shouldn't go into this trap. But sometimes they need it. So now what? Well, you have to say to them, "Please forgive me, but I will tell you something which you will not like."

Then you have the other side indulging the disciple who needs praise. Like if they don't get praise they just go into depression and they feel like, they feel like rejected, yeah. Yeah. So that's the opposite side.

How do you deal with that? You give them all the praise they need to keep them going?

Avoiding emotional dependency

Or does that become a codependent addiction for them? See, one very interesting thing I read in Jīva Gosvāmī's Krama Sandarbha.

That's in relationship to this verse from the seventh canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, where Nārada Muni says that guru should not accept many disciples. It's one of the Nishades, one of the prohibitions.

While commenting on this verse, Jīva Gosvāmī says something which is totally opposite to the meaning of this verse. He says, "No, guru can accept many disciples, because otherwise sampradāya or school will die out.

And to maintain sampradāya or to expand sampradāya, one should accept many disciples. But he says that while accepting many disciples, he should not be dependent on them.

So he says that this prohibition is only, you know, in regard to Guru who becomes dependent on his disciples, on their praise, on their relationship, on their love and so on and so forth.

So if you're not dependent on your disciples, if you're not emotionally dependent on your disciples, then you can tell them the truth, which sometimes they accept.

And sometimes you can praise the disciples, you know, without being dependent on their emotional reaction to this praise. It's also okay, you know.

But if you're doing it because you just want their love and return, then it's not healthy.

So what you're saying is that if the disciple is dependent on praise and the guru is dependent on praise, then they've created a very dysfunctional relationship, a very psychologically, emotionally dysfunctional relationship.

At least somebody should not be dependent. Say that again. At least somebody should not be dependent.

I think it's important for a disciple to understand that if a guru is bona fide, everything that he's doing, whether it's praising you or correcting you, is solely out of his desire to help you become Krishna conscious. There's no other motive there. It's not personal.

He thinks he gets gratification from chastising. That's not what he's doing. And as you say, he's not praising you so you'll like him.

But he's doing that because he sees that's what that's the best thing you need right now. It's important for the disciple to understand that otherwise when they get chastised they can get they sometimes become destroyed.

They think my guru doesn't love me, he chastises. No, he chastises you because he loves you.

I think it's also important for the disciples to be self-aware because sometimes you come to Krishna consciousness with a life in which you were rejected by parents or lover or some, and if you sense that one of the guru is correcting you, he's rejecting you, it can destroy you. But that's just because of your past experience, not that he's actually rejecting you.

Sometimes. Yeah, okay. Go ahead. I just want to say one more thing. I had a disciple who said you're always chastising me and I couldn't remember ever chastising that disciple.

But that's how that disciple perceived just being instructed because of the past experiences that she had. Yeah, I also have similar experience when people, they're programmed, they're so used to being rejected.

Then when they enter the relationship with Guru they immediately start expecting that he will reject them as well.

And if he's not rejecting, they think something is wrong and they do something so that they would be rejected because they feel more comfortable, you know, if this experience is repeated. I think it's also healthy.

I understand what you said perfectly. That's very, that's unfortunately very common. So what could happen then for that disciple is they start becoming offensive to their guru and saying: Oh, you rejected me. Right?

So if you're in a situation like that or some similar situation in which you feel your guru is being unfair or unkind, the proper thing to do is humbly approach him and say: I feel like I've been rejected. Did you reject me?

Rather than accuse him of doing so. So it's not that you can't question your guru, but you have to do it humbly.

Or you know, you could say, you know, Guru Maharaja, I have this problem and, you know, when you get heavy with me, I, you know, I have trauma from the past of rejection or whatever. And so it's difficult for me. I just want you to know that.

Okay, so now the guru knows. I have to be a little careful. That's fine. Вы можете подойти и сказать, а не конфронтировать с ним из-за этого и жаловаться, что он меня критикует.

You know, sometimes Prabhupāda would chastise somebody, and they couldn't take it. And then Prabhupāda would say, bring him back, and then Prabhupāda would be very nice and put him back together, so to speak.

So it's not that the guru isn't willing to do that and is not sensitive, but it has to be good communication. There is a very interesting observation in this regard.

To be open in relationship means to be humble in relationship. When we close, when we shut down ourselves, shut up ourselves in the relationship. It's a manifestation of pride, you know.

Openness requires a lot of humility from both sides.

Humility and traditional relationships

Yes. Yes, both sides. Okay, so this brings up a very sensitive topic which I've never heard spoken about. I've never spoken about it publicly. And I'm gonna ask you a question. This is a difficult topic.

Well actually it was spoken about in the 80s in a VIHE class and the class was entitled spiritual abuse.

So you're saying the guru has to be humble, which means something like perhaps he could make a mistake and apologize? Maybe he mistreated someone, he was too heavy, he apologized. He misunderstood somebody.

You know, the typical Vedic Guru is kind of, you know, into town on an elephant with an umbrella over his head, kind of like this infallible person, you know.

And a guru apologizing for making a mistake seems to be like seems, I'm not saying it is, it seems to be like a very western idea as opposed to traditional guru, you know, who's way-way above everybody, who is the person to instruct everybody.

So, how do you understand that? I personally think that this idea of guru riding on an elephant with a royal insignia over his head is a very modern idea. It's not Vedic idea.

And these disciples were brought up by him from the age of, you know, six years or, you know, seven years or five even years. And he would take care of them. And the relationship because of this would be so strong.

The disciple would feel that the Guru is, I mean, Guru could allow himself to be heavy with the disciple because he invested so much in this disciple. Bringing him up from this young age, feeding him, taking care of him.

So he could be heavy because the relationship was sore, thick. You know, this guru on the elephant is something really, you know, from the modern age, not from the ancient history.

So this guru, who invested in his disciples so much, he doesn't have to apologize to a disciple. And his disciple will never expect apology from such a guru due to the nature of their relationship.

But in the modern environment, when the relationships are not so trusting, there is not so much investment from both sides. Guru may not have invested too much and disciple may not have invested.

So naturally the relationships are more remote and therefore this apology is a natural thing because misunderstandings may happen. In this traditional relationship chances for misunderstandings are very small.

But when the relationships are not as close as in traditional scenario, then there is a room for apology. There is room for being humble and for admitting mistakes.

Addressing grievances and misunderstanding

So it's not a western idea, it's reality, which we are— It's not a western idea at all. Okay, so this then is the segue into the difficult question of spiritual abuse.

Because there is always the possibility that a guru is not fully qualified in every aspect of human interaction also can become weak.

And the guru has a lot of power, a lot of responsibility, and if he's not very mature, it can go to his head. At least it happens. Not often, but it happens. And it goes to his head? Yeah, the power.

I'm guru, I'm always right, you're a disciple, you're always wrong. That's usually often how it is, but not always.

So my question to you, Maharaja, is what, how would a disciple know if they're guru, dikshaguru, sikshaguru, temple president, GBC? Not saying this is going to happen, but how would they know if there's some abuse?

What would be a sign for them to notice? And not that we don't want to go around noticing it, but if, you know, sometimes the disciple will feel something's not right.

I don't think that dealing was fair or something seems to be wrong. Is that even something we should discuss? And if so, then how do we proceed? Absolutely. We should definitely discuss this.

And in my humble opinion, if we feel that something goes wrong, then we and by some reason we don't feel that we can deal about this subject matter with the Guru himself which is often the case then we should go to somebody who is on the same level as a guru and try to discuss this problem with him, we trust and who can perhaps correct or speak with the spiritual master and see and at least ask his assessment, his advice. And ideally it should be the person who has relationship with our Guru and some close relationship, who will not, who will not take everything which we will say with the face value, who can perhaps explain to us where our perception is wrong because sometimes it happens.

So ideally it's not somebody who is just on the equal level with the Guru but maybe remote and doesn't know Guru.

But ideally it should be somebody who knows our spiritual master and who can objectively judge whether this is an abuse or whether this is our mistake or misunderstanding or misperception of what's going on.

Right, sometimes it's also important to note that I, as a disciple, may experience something that's uneasy for me and it's not uneasy for other disciples. So it's not objectively abuse, but it may be for my condition, but that's okay because I'm experiencing that it's difficult for me and like you say I should go talk to someone rather than just either become offensive or distance myself or become weak.

So we shouldn't feel bad if that's happening. We need to deal with it in some way. I think also what a lot of disciples experience is that, like you said, their guru is giving them knowledge and it's helping them.

But there are other things they need in their relationship. And that particular guru, it's not his nature to do that. So sometimes they find a Siksha Guru. Say, Well, I need more.

I like to do service, but my guru has too many disciples, but I could serve this Siksha Guru. So that way they satisfy a need that their guru can't fulfill. And it's not the guru's fault.

It's just not his nature or the circumstance. Doesn't allow it. Now, just one little thing to this.

If we have relationship with other people, senior to us, god brothers of our spiritual master and our peers, then all these problems will be easy because there will be somebody whom we can open our heart.

So it's a question of having a close relationship. But for that we need openness and for openness we need humility. Oftentimes people who are...

This is, again I repeat myself, this is a manifestation of pride when people are too close and they don't trust anyone basically. And for these people it's very difficult.

But if they're humble enough, they have a lot of relationship and then they can solve this problem, which is a problem. I agree.

Avoiding disciple abuse of guru

Okay, so now, I mean, we could talk about this longer, but I just wanted to just bring it up as a general idea. And I want to bring up the opposite idea now. Disciple abuse of the Guru.

So can you give some examples of that? You must have thousands already, right? I just don't want to develop the victim mentality.

Okay, we won't use, then we'll have be generalized, not be subjective in our own lives, just general.

Yeah, that's definitely, you know, relationship is always, difficult and because people are especially in Kali Yuga they have very abusive relationship.

It's the nature of Kali Yuga, the relationship becoming progressively more and more abusive. It's just abuse as all pervading. You know, Guru may abuse disciples, disciples may abuse their Guru. No problem.

You know, why not? It's normal. I think it's good for disciples to know how they could potentially be abusing, even if they don't realize they are.

Simple example, you know, that a disciple may expect that, you know, his guru will answer his questions and he has, in average, 10 questions a day.

And his guru has to answer all his questions because it is said that Advidi pranipateenapari prasnena sevaya.

This is a spiritual relationship and I am asking, you know, all these spiritual questions and my guru has to answer them, you know, the same moment I the question, you know, pops in my head.

And they're like abuse abuse of the guru's time. Yeah, Yeah, I mean, abuse always happens when there is too much expectations.

You know, when guru expects too much he maybe becomes abusive, when disciple expects too much and his expectations are not fulfilled, then it can also become, you know, he becomes very demanding and, you know, demanding that all his expectations will be fulfilled.

But real relationship is the relationship of two people who are free, who are not really expecting too much. Like Prabhupada said, My relationship with my Guru was always how can I serve you?

That's the proper relationship. I don't expect much from my guru but he already gave me so much so I just want to ask him what he wants from me. So that's the proper way of relationship.

Too much expectation inevitably leads to an abuse. Assuming it's supposed to be a certain way without conferring with the Guru if that's the what if my assumptions are correct.

And it's okay to have assumptions and expectations. The problem is if they're not aligned with what the Guru can offer, then you have that problem.

I think also, you know, you might become a disciple when the guru has 20 disciples, and then ten years later he has 2,000. It's a different dynamic. You can't expect the same thing anymore. And the guru's change also.

They get older, they want to go more into bhajana. Isn't it? Yeah, this thing, you know, again want to say something a little bit about expectations.

We definitely expect, you know, it's natural we expect, but we shouldn't demand. Even our expectations are right, if we really love somebody then our only desire is to do something so that this person will be happy, not that this person fulfills my expectations.

Да. И, you said, like you said, the natural function of a guru is that he will always be giving instructions. So that's the main expectation. Then you will be guided his words and by his example.

And, you know, guru, as any devotee, guru wants to give. He really wants to give. But he wants to give what he wants to give. It's not necessarily that he has to give something which you expect.

But if you gratefully accept what he can give and wants to give, there is plenty good things, which he can give. And like we said, there are other devotees, seniors, sikshagurus, tikshagurus, who can give different

Who can give something else? Who can give something else. Yeah, fine. Fine. Yeah, if I feel that something is lacking in this particular relationship, I can always find somebody who will fulfill this need, which I have.

But, I, at the same time, I should be grateful for what I perceived already.

There are expectations which are normal and natural, and there may be expectations connected with some psychological need we have and so we project that on the Guru to fulfill a certain need that's missing in our life, and then that creates an unhealthy relationship. condemn anyone for having those needs.

I would just say that fulfilling those needs through your Guru may not always be the best way to do it. It may be in some cases and in other cases not. Talking about abusive relationship also.

Some people are programmed to have, you know, the only thing which they've seen in their life is just some sort of abusive relationship.

So naturally when they come to Krishna consciousness movement they bring the same mentality and they project their experience and they start doing the same thing, you know, here trying to abuse others.

you know, life he was a racketeer.

Summary of healthy guru relationships

He was, so he came here and he started racketeering the watches, you know, and racketeering his guru as you know, because that's the only way which he knows how to do it.

So we actually have a japa class on this channel, so devotees are going to start showing up for Japa.

But I wanted to summarize this last point in saying that if someone's looking for a guru, they can number one think about what to expect, what not to expect. They can ask the guru what to expect.

And the second point which we just made, which is extremely important, is that if you have a tendency to have difficult relationships, there's a good chance you'll have a difficult relationship with your guru.

So that's really something to seriously consider, that, you know, to be careful when you enter that relationship because it's not that you should automatically think, well, just because he's a guru and I'm a disciple, it's going to be good.

But if you have difficulty with relationship, it's probably gonna be difficult with that as well, or it can be. Thank you, mahārāja. This was a good discussion. Thank you. Necessary, I think. Thank you, mahātmā Prabhu.

We'll finish that. We continue it another time? Yes. We just touched on some sensitive points that are important. Okay. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Спасибо.